View Poll Results: The most interesting rivalry in figure skating

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  • Yu Na Kim and Mao Asada

    18 7.56%
  • Tonya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan

    18 7.56%
  • Brian Boitano and Brian Orser

    42 17.65%
  • Katarina Witt and Debi Thomas

    7 2.94%
  • Alexei Yagudin and Evgeni Plushenko

    131 55.04%
  • Michelle Kwan and Tara Lipinski

    8 3.36%
  • Scott Hamilton and Scott Cramer

    0 0%
  • Jamie Sale and David Pelletier vs. Yelena Berezhnaya and Anton Sikharulidze

    6 2.52%
  • Linda Fratianne and Anett Poetzsch

    3 1.26%
  • Todd Eldredge and Timothy Goebel

    0 0%
  • Other

    5 2.10%
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    Yags Plush.
    No question.
    +1.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by meggonzo View Post
    who the hell is Scott Cramer?
    Cramer was 2nd at Nationals in 1977 and '79, was 5th at Worlds in '79 also and very much on a par with Scott Hamilton in the late 1970's. The rivalry is infamous because of a lot of trash talking which all resulted from Carlo Fassi at one time training both of them but clearly favouring Cramer which pushed Hamilton to go to Don Laws. When Hamilton made the 1980 Olympic team ahead of Cramer he was able to gloat to Fassi that he had picked the wrong Scott.

    Cramer went on to win the Spanish World Pro event in 1980 and the US Professional title in 1981. He's a Doctor now I believe. Here's one of his best performances from the 1980 pre Olympic event at Lake Placid called Norton skate where he was beaten by.....Scott Hamilton!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEKAj...eature=related

  3. #23
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    Brian B. vs. Brian O. - I prefer friendly rivalries, although the one between Alexei Y. & Plushy was pretty amazing.

    I don't consider Todd vs. Timmy a rivalry, but I do consider Todd vs. Elvis a rivalry. Loved seeing both of them on the World podium. I got the sense that it was also a respectful rivalry, like with the Brians.

    As for the ladies - Michelle vs. Irina, Michelle vs. Tara

  4. #24
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    I voted for Yagudin & Plushenko, but If I could choose 2 options, I would vote also on Yuna & Mao.

    no Michelle Kwan & Irina Slutskaya on the list?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    I really feel that Kwan v. Slute was a manufactured rivalry. At the time I was all for it and a huge Slutskaya fan, but in retrospect, Kwan really had it all over Irina and it should never have been as close as it was. I think their rivalry was more the result of Russian politics and the void left by Lipinski's departure.
    I disagree. Other than the 2001-2002 season Grand Prix there isnt one win Irina had over Michelle that was controversial, and Irina had many wins over Michelle from 2000 onwards. And Kwan didnt have it all over Irina. Irina was definitely the better jumper, probably the better spinner, skated with more speed and power, was comparable and at times better in footwork (even though Kwan also had excellent footwork). At her best she was technically superior to Kwan, which wasnt true of any of the other top skaters of that era.

    And with her back problems Tara would have lost her triple-triple combos and without those she would have dropped out of the top 5 before long probably. At the time it seemed like a shame but in retrospect thank goodness for her she turned pro when she did. She probably would have taken silver at the 99 Nationals and Worlds then gone downhill in a big way from there.

  6. #26

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    I disagree with your disagreement. That is not to say Irina didn't have excellent qualities and didn't do things better than Kwan, but comparing routines and performances during the height of their rivalry, there was just a difference in quality of skating and even choreography. For all the grief Kwan gets for her lack of transitions, I don't get why Irina isn't criticized more for her mash-up, incohesive, pose-heavy, Rachael Flatt-style cutesy/bored looking angst, (front-load heavy SPs) choreography in the early 2000s that was emptier than most of the top skaters (in fact, I think she's a big reason why Kwan started scaling back on her choreography to stroke around in order to catch up to Irina's speed skating).

    But we can just leave it at that because otherwise, we'd be talking in circles and it's obvious we'll continue to disagree on this point.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  7. #27
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    I'm gonna throw some more love toward Fratianne/Poetzsch

    - Fratianne's was the first eligible career I followed (to the extent that was possible at the time)
    - it lasted for an entire olympic cycle
    - there was the whole cold war vibe going on
    - figures added a special mystique to the competition
    - the lack of media overkill also added to the mystique
    - the whole 'amateur' thing also added to the mystique
    - it really was close most of the time

  8. #28
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    Battle of the Brians for sure!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I disagree with your disagreement. That is not to say Irina didn't have excellent qualities and didn't do things better than Kwan, but comparing routines and performances during the height of their rivalry, there was just a difference in quality of skating and even choreography.
    Like I said other than the 2001-2002 Grand Prix final when has Irina ever had a victory over Kwan she did not deserve or that was controversial. If nobody can answer that question then obviously it was a major rivalry.

    In fact the only arguably controversial losses Kwan has ever had in a major event her whole career were agaisnt Lipinski .

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    I'm gonna throw some more love toward Fratianne/Poetzsch

    - Fratianne's was the first eligible career I followed (to the extent that was possible at the time)
    - it lasted for an entire olympic cycle
    - there was the whole cold war vibe going on
    - figures added a special mystique to the competition
    - the lack of media overkill also added to the mystique
    - the whole 'amateur' thing also added to the mystique
    - it really was close most of the time
    Looking back it doesnt seem that great to me. I guess since it was so competitive it was great in that sense. However Fratianne and her coach whining after every time they lost to Poetzsch (even times it was clearly justified and Linda was in fact overmarked like the 78 Worlds), the bland and rather dull skating of both, the fact neither ever had any kind of historic performance or historical battle, and that all the contests seemed to involve either splats (77 and 79 Worlds by Poetzsch), controversy (Fratianne losing in 1980), or just overall mediocre skating (1980 Worlds except for LP by Fratianne) and I dont see it as anything memorable or great.

    Personally I would have been glad when both just retired and they moved on to some more interesting, consistent, and classy skaters. I would rather watch tapes of Watanabe, Marie Allen, Sandy Lenz, Denise Beillmann, or Elene Voderezova than either of any of their performances anyway.

  11. #31
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    Battle of the Brians, hands down. And the whole Nancy and Tonya saga was a circus act, not a rivalry.

    PS- I'm waiting for esta to vote for Pasha vs. ussova

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Looking back it doesnt seem that great to me. I guess since it was so competitive it was great in that sense. However Fratianne and her coach whining after every time they lost to Poetzsch (even times it was clearly justified and Linda was in fact overmarked like the 78 Worlds), the bland and rather dull skating of both, the fact neither ever had any kind of historic performance or historical battle, and that all the contests seemed to involve either splats (77 and 79 Worlds by Poetzsch), controversy (Fratianne losing in 1980), or just overall mediocre skating (1980 Worlds except for LP by Fratianne) and I dont see it as anything memorable or great.

    Personally I would have been glad when both just retired and they moved on to some more interesting, consistent, and classy skaters. I would rather watch tapes of Watanabe, Marie Allen, Sandy Lenz, Denise Beillmann, or Elene Voderezova than either of any of their performances anyway.
    This. I've been watching a lot of competitions from this era and Watanabe and Allen have it all over Poetzch and Fratianne, wish that could have been better reflected in the results (neither of them were the most consistent of souls, but there were definitely some instances where they were clearly superior to the other two), Bielmann was of course brilliant as well, but I think her greatness is pretty well remembered whereas Watanabe and Allen have faded from memory.

    Still Judge Judy we'll have to agree to disagree on Kwan and Slutskaya; arguments have been made ad nauseum (and I was a part of many) for both skater's technical superiority (eg. Slutskaya jumped higher but had no run-out or flow, whereas Kwan's jumps were lower but had the best run-out and flow in the business. Slutskaya spun faster with bad positions, Kwan spun slower with better positions; Slutskaya skated faster with poor posture, Kwan skated slower with impeccable posture.) but really the overall impression was that there was nothing in the technical realm that Slutskaya did better than Kwan that could overcome the significant deficit she built up in overall quality compared to Kwan.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    However Fratianne and her coach whining after every time they lost to Poetzsch (even times it was clearly justified and Linda was in fact overmarked like the 78 Worlds).
    /
    Judge for yourself: are these free skate rankings justified from 1978 worlds?

    1 - Linda Fratianne

    2 - Denise Biellmann

    3 - Anett Poetzsch

    4 - Lisa Marie Allen

    5 - Elena Vodorezova

    6 - Susanna Driano

    7 - Dagmar Lurz

    8 - Emi Watanabe

    10 - Priscilla Hill

  14. #34
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    Here's my HQ video of Lisa Marie Allen:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0xA3hfEU30

    Of the top skaters in the free I would have had it:

    1 - Lisa Marie Allen
    2 - Fratianne
    3 - Vodorezova
    4 - Poetszch
    5 - Biellmann

    Wierdly I was reading an old skating magazine this morning that had reports from these Worlds and the writer (not an American btw) suggested that Linda lost because Anett scaled back her SP combo from a triple jump to a double axel combo and thus went clean. Fratianne, Biellmann, Vodorezova and Allen did a triple jump for the SP. Back then when triple jumps in ladies were still quite rare, there wasn't much difference shown in the marking of technical merit.

    Poetzsch skated as well as she had at this point in time in the free but the program is loaded with safety nets for when she inevitably doubled her triple attempts and it all starts to look like stalking one jump. Linda - while not my fave by any stretch of the imagination - at least had a more cohesive program with better quality elements and a do or die approach to her triples. It was then or never. Her only mistake the whole week, where she was under real pressure as the defending champion, was a double 3 out her her triple toe.

    ETA: Swapped Vodorezova & Biellmann as I got them the wrong way round

  15. #35
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    My rankings for the LP at the 78 Worlds would have been:

    1. Lisa Marie Allen- best overall performance by far IMO.

    2. Elena Voderezova- best jumping of night.

    3. Annett Poetzsch- her 2nd best ever long program ever.

    4. Linda Fratianne- boring and she missed a jump too. Joke she won the long program with only 1 clean triple IMHO (ok Marie Allen only had 1 but the overall skating was far superior). I would have put her over Poetzsch if she had landed the triple toe cleanly though.

    5. Denise Biellmann- mistakes, very undeveloped artistically compared to later years at that point.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Looking back it doesnt seem that great to me. I guess since it was so competitive it was great in that sense. However Fratianne and her coach whining after every time they lost to Poetzsch (even times it was clearly justified and Linda was in fact overmarked like the 78 Worlds), the bland and rather dull skating of both, the fact neither ever had any kind of historic performance or historical battle, and that all the contests seemed to involve either splats (77 and 79 Worlds by Poetzsch), controversy (Fratianne losing in 1980), or just overall mediocre skating (1980 Worlds except for LP by Fratianne) and I dont see it as anything memorable or great.

    Personally I would have been glad when both just retired and they moved on to some more interesting, consistent, and classy skaters. I would rather watch tapes of Watanabe, Marie Allen, Sandy Lenz, Denise Beillmann, or Elene Voderezova than either of any of their performances anyway.
    I recall that FC was complaining about a conspiracy after the '80 Olympics, but did something happen in '78, too?

    I don't condone charges of conspiracy w/o evidence but FC was probably frustrated in '80 that Fratianne did better in Figures, outperformed her '79 world champion LP performance, yet still barely lost to Poetzsch perhaps overscored in the SP

    ______________________________________

    Some of my fave rivalries -

    Witt v. Thomas
    Kwan v. Lipinski
    Kwan v. Slutskaya
    Yagudin v. Plushenko
    Asada v. Kim
    Lysacek v. Weir

  17. #37
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    It's fascinating to look at the free skates from 1978. What I found most interesting was how young these skaters were - Voderezova was just 13(!) at the time, Biellman 15, Potzsch and Allen only 17.

    I can see why Fratianne placed first despite her somewhat rigid presentation. She had a miss on the 3T, but had a 2Lz+2T and 2A+2T and lots of difficult entrances and connecting moves.

    Biellmann showed shades of greatness to come, but I definitely feel Allen should've been ahead of her. Speaking of Allen, could that program *be* and more '70s? The classical mishmash complete with the requisite "Firebird" She was lovely though.

    Potzsch was solid too, it's shocking to see how similar Katarina Witt's skating is to hers.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by all_empty View Post
    Potzsch was solid too, it's shocking to see how similar Katarina Witt's skating is to hers.
    Ah, I see you've never visited Planet Jutta Muller before where all the lady skaters are ... pretty much the same.

  19. #39
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    Thanks for all the links from 1978 Worlds !
    The only programs I've watched of Linda Fratianne and Annet Poetzsch are 1980 Olympics'. And really, I think Linda wuzrobbed !
    But at 1978 Worlds, Annet's LP is better than Linda's IMO.

  20. #40
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    I am not a big fan of Witt, but Witt is way better than Poetzsch IMO. Poetzsch never even beat Fratianne in a short or long program after 76 while Witt would blow a pededstrian skater like Fratianne away in free skating, even the younger Witt probably. And of course Witt was far more consistent than Poetzsch who atleast half the time bombed in the free skating (77 Worlds, 79 Worlds, 80 Worlds, many other events). Poetzsch retired after 1980 since she trained with Witt and knew Witt would blow past her with ease almost immediately with the new factored scoring.

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