what do coaches look at to assess skaters potential ?

[Artifice]

I see some young (and less young) skaters of an overall same level and wonder who are those who will improve more and faster. Watching them doing only simple moves and single jumps, moves that don't require specific strong physical qualities, I hear coaches anticipating on some skaters potential improvements and their capacity to reach more or less given levels, and I wonder what criterias do these coaches use to manage to see skaters future so precisely.

Do you, as skater, coach or simple experienced skating viewer, manage to "predict" a (beginner) skater's future ? What do you look at to fix your assessment ?

[Aussie Willy]

I don't think you use a specific criteria. It is more just when you watch a skater you can see they have potential.

However as a judge and adult skater of many years, if I was to suggest some things that would make me think a skater had potential, I look at knee bend, ankle flexion, posture, how they apply the blade to the ice (no toe pushing), flexibility and how quickly they pick things up (jumps and spins).

What bugs me though is when a skater has potential and a coach who can't help them get there through letting the skater get away with bad technique, but the coach doesn't recognise it.

[KatieC]

I should think that along with everything mentioned by Aussie Willy, as a coach, you'd also want to see enthusiasm for skating. Some kids just take to new things like a duck to water, and some just don't get it.

[Doubletoe]

At least in the U.S., I think what most coaches look at to assess a skater's potential is the parents' ability to pay for lots of lessons. Very few coaches ever have a skater that gets sent to the Olympics, but every coach needs to pay the rent.

[backspin]

At least in the U.S., I think what most coaches look at to assess a skater's potential is the parents' ability to pay for lots of lessons. Very few coaches ever have a skater that gets sent to the Olympics, but every coach needs to pay the rent.

I'm sorry, I'm a coach & I'm pretty offended by that comment. And I have to say, I can't think of a single coach I know who would ever take that attitude.

Back OT, with younger skaters, I'm looking for a sense of body awareness and coordination that comes naturally for some & not for others. Also, as someone else mentioned, the mental attitude; if they're focused, work hard, able to practice on their own, and willing to try something dozens (or more!) times before they finally get it.

The willingness to work hard can go a long way toward making up for less God-given ability. The magical combination is when you have someone with that natural physical ability, PLUS the mental attitude that will take them far in the sport.

[hanca]

I'm sorry, I'm a coach & I'm pretty offended by that comment. And I have to say, I can't think of a single coach I know who would ever take that attitude.

Back OT, with younger skaters, I'm looking for a sense of body awareness and coordination that comes naturally for some & not for others. Also, as someone else mentioned, the mental attitude; if they're focused, work hard, able to practice on their own, and willing to try something dozens (or more!) times before they finally get it.

The willingness to work hard can go a long way toward making up for less God-given ability. The magical combination is when you have someone with that natural physical ability, PLUS the mental attitude that will take them far in the sport.

I don't think Doubletoe meant it in any nasty way. I believe that what she meant was that no matter how much you enjoy teaching, it is a business. You have to earn your living; you can't afford to give out free lessons like they get them in China and used to get them in Russia. It also needs to be acknowledged that children do have different level of talent, as well as the determination and willingness to practice, and for every really talented child who could potentially take it as far as the elite level you must be teaching a lot of children who don't have the same amount of talent, will never take it as far as nationals, or some may be lazy to practice etc. So when someone approaches you whether you will give them lessons, you probably are not using the same selection criteria as the chineese would use (the level of talent, the figure of the child and the parents, how supportive the parents are, the character of the child (will he/she be able to bear the harsh treatment of chineese training methods) and child's willingness to practice extremely hard). You may just think - does the child likes to skate, can they pay for the lessons, can I get on with the child and with the parents and that's it. You just can't afford to be as picky as the chineese where the training of the talented is paid by the state.

[jp1andonly]

sometimes you just see a spark, something that sets them apart. There were a couple skaters i know that someone said would go far but I looked at them and said no they wouldnt make it to nationals. One skater grew so much and didnt have the jumps but is lovely skater non the less and the other didnt get the jumps either. Sometimes its a gut feeling. I watched cynthia phaneuf long before she went to seniors and clearly predicted that one day she'd go to the olympics. I was right. As other have said, body awareness, musicality are all things to look at as well.

[Aussie Willy]

I'm sorry, I'm a coach & I'm pretty offended by that comment. And I have to say, I can't think of a single coach I know who would ever take that attitude.

I agree with Hanca. I don't think Doubletoe's post was meant to be nasty. Rather more practical. Having been a driving instructor, the worst thing is to have people who don't turn up for lessons or don't pay. It mucks you around and wastes your time.

One of my coaches (who coaches in her spare time outside of her regular job) places reliability as one the reason why she likes to coach particular people. She has no problem about their level or ability - she treats every student with respect because they pay their hard earned money to her. And they are all enthusiastic to learn, regardless of their ability. But she really hates having her time wasted by being at the rink for a lesson and then the person doesn't show up.

We have had a number of threads about difficult students/coaches. You can have the student with the greatest potential in the world, but if the parents are a nightmare, or totally unreliable, the stress may not be worth it.

On the other hand you can have a coach who tells the parent that their child is exceptionally talented and will be doing triple jumps within 5 years and they are the coach to take their kid there. In some instances the coach is just bullsh*tting the parents and wasting the parent's hard earned money. And it is not fair on the skater.

[backspin]

I took Doubletoe's comment to mean that most American coaches will tell parents that their child has great potential just to string them along & take their money. Maybe I was mistaken. *shrug*

[Doubletoe]

I'm sorry, I'm a coach & I'm pretty offended by that comment. And I have to say, I can't think of a single coach I know who would ever take that attitude.

Back OT, with younger skaters, I'm looking for a sense of body awareness and coordination that comes naturally for some & not for others. Also, as someone else mentioned, the mental attitude; if they're focused, work hard, able to practice on their own, and willing to try something dozens (or more!) times before they finally get it.

The willingness to work hard can go a long way toward making up for less God-given ability. The magical combination is when you have someone with that natural physical ability, PLUS the mental attitude that will take them far in the sport.

Backspin, I'm sincerely sorry to have offended you. The point I was trying to make was exactly what Hanca said. Unlike in China or in the old USSR, I don't think many coaches in the U.S. choose whether or not to take on a student based on an assessment of the child's potential. They neither have the need to do that nor the luxury of doing that, since they are not employees of the state.
I think most coaches just do their best to bring out each child's potential and they hope the student works hard, makes progress and enjoys the process, and of course it would be icing on the cake if the student ended up making it to Nationals or beyond. I am very lucky that most coaches here don't reject students based on their perceived potential because otherwise I wouldn't have the benefit of the two wonderful coaches I have!

[Aussie Willy]

I am very lucky that most coaches here don't reject students based on their perceived potential because otherwise I wouldn't have the benefit of the two wonderful coaches I have!

I know what you mean. I feel very lucky as well.

[Artifice]

Potential's assessment can be perceived by the viewer as something felt or just predicted based on an overall feeling, but to set such opinion it is based on some criterias that are more precise and measurable. It's not just a personal feeling, given the personal feeling is because of objective criterias, that have been listed here by different users.

Backspin said "coaches will tell parents that their child has great potential just to string them along & take their money." I think it is an economic reality that coaches need to pay their bill and need to have regular money incomes. So they have to ensure that they get enough money from parents to support their living. As a consequence they need to have skaters in their group, and for sure they won't keep skaters if coaches tell them that they are bad without potential. They must at least explain that with work skaters will improve, otherwise parents won't see the point of spending lot of money to not reach anything. And sometimes coaches go a little too far telling skaters and parents that they will bring them to a high level, even when it's obviously not possible regarding the student's potential.

The bad thing is that skaters and parents feel flattered and believe it worths sacrifices to allow the kid to reach elite level. The problem is that the skater doesn't have the potential and all sacrifices are just useless, but they are real nonetheless. Those skaters end up missing classes, lowering their academic education and their parents spend all their money, for nothing, at least not what for they aimed at.
That's what I feel is bad behavior from coaches.

Encouraging skaters, telling them that with hard work they will improve, are one thing, and this is true. But making them believe in something that won't happen and pushing parents and skaters to make wrong decisions for their future is another thing, a step that ethic should prevent coaches from doing.

Getting back to the topic I agree with "The magical combination is when you have someone with that natural physical ability, PLUS the mental attitude that will take them far in the sport."
I think physic and mental are necessary, it can't work without one.
But it looks like, from what I've seen, that coaches tend to look more at physical abilities than mental capacities. But the more successful skaters are those who use their brain to maximise their physical capacities. In competition mental strenght is extremely important.
I see some skaters with good physical capacities but who are so dumb that they just can't get some important aspect of the sport.

To summarize some criterias listed by you, it gives :
knee bend, ankle flexion, posture, how they apply the blade to the ice (no toe pushing), flexibility and how quickly they pick things up, body awareness and coordination, mental attitude, musicality.
I would add being fearless helps a lot.

I personnaly kind of admire coaches (well, it's their jib but still) who see two skaters at a pretty average level and say this one is going to have triples in 4 years and this one will struggles for doubles. Even looking at all criterias it's not that easy IMO to make the assessement. It's also because criterias are not so easy to assess neither.

[backspin]

Backspin, I'm sincerely sorry to have offended you. The point I was trying to make was exactly what Hanca said. Unlike in China or in the old USSR, I don't think many coaches in the U.S. choose whether or not to take on a student based on an assessment of the child's potential. They neither have the need to do that nor the luxury of doing that, since they are not employees of the state.
I think most coaches just do their best to bring out each child's potential and they hope the student works hard, makes progress and enjoys the process, and of course it would be icing on the cake if the student ended up making it to Nationals or beyond. I am very lucky that most coaches here don't reject students based on their perceived potential because otherwise I wouldn't have the benefit of the two wonderful coaches I have!

Thanks for the explanation! I'm very glad I misunderstood. I think of skating as a lifetime sport, and which (like any sport) can teach very valuable life lessons to kids of all abilities. None of my parents is thinking their child is the next Olympian, and we're all just working to make them the best skater they are capable of being, whatever that is.

Seeing as I started skating as an adult, I'm extra-grateful that my coaches were willing to take on someone who wasn't going to add anything to their coaching resume!

[Doubletoe]

Thanks for the explanation! I'm very glad I misunderstood. I think of skating as a lifetime sport, and which (like any sport) can teach very valuable life lessons to kids of all abilities. None of my parents is thinking their child is the next Olympian, and we're all just working to make them the best skater they are capable of being, whatever that is.

Seeing as I started skating as an adult, I'm extra-grateful that my coaches were willing to take on someone who wasn't going to add anything to their coaching resume!

Exactly. And when I jokingly said the main criterion was the parents' ability to pay for lots of lessons, it's because I understand how hard it is to make a good living as a coach, especially when students don't show up, cancel, quit, etc. Whenever I see that either of my coaches has a new student who is dedicated and whose parents are willing and able to pay for lots of lessons, I am happy and relieved for them. It's not financial security, but it sure helps.

[hanca]

I am very lucky that most coaches here don't reject students based on their perceived potential because otherwise I wouldn't have the benefit of the two wonderful coaches I have!

(me too!!!)

[Aussie Willy]

(((Group Hug!!))))

[Artifice]

Hug to !

It's good for skaters to have good coaches even if they can't reach heights.

For a coach is the result actually the only motivation's criteria for them ? Given that work makes people improve regardless of their potential, the fact that a skater works hard and is a motivated student can probably gives enough satisfaction for a coach to teach skating to motivated yet not talented students (?).

Skaters who will reach elite top level are very few, so even talented students won't reach this level since it needs a lot lot of talent, a little talent is not enough. Therefore some coaches may not appreciate working with talented skaters who are difficult students, knowing that eventhough they have potential to reach a good level it's not like they will be world champions or olympians. So, coaches may think the student doesn't deserve the big effort from the coach for results that anyway won't be so glorious.

But still there are some coaches who seem to only give attention to students who show potential compared to skaters of the same group. And this eventhough the given skaters has a limited potential, as long as it looks higher than others some coaches focus on them. Regardless of the skater's motivation or mental quality.
Actually these coaches seem to be the opposite of what you described Doubletoe and Hanca.

But what's the point of focusing on relatively talented but difficult skaters who will anyway not reach top level vs average skaters who are nice students and hard workers who will get to improve because of good work ethic ?

[GarrAarghHrumph]

(((Group Hug!!))))

[FigureSpins]

Coaches look for balance, carriage, strength, speed and fearlessness as indicators of potential. A skater who can think ahead and control their body parts are ideal. I also find that skaters who show enthusiasm and interest inspire their coaches as well.

[backspin]

Given that work makes people improve regardless of their potential, the fact that a skater works hard and is a motivated student can probably gives enough satisfaction for a coach to teach skating to motivated yet not talented students (?).

But what's the point of focusing on relatively talented but difficult skaters who will anyway not reach top level vs average skaters who are nice students and hard workers who will get to improve because of good work ethic ?

^^ This. I'd far prefer a student who works hard, even if they're less talented. In fact, often the ones with more talent are more difficult to deal with. I do have one fairly naturally talented student right now, and she's such a drama queen, you wouldn't even believe.....