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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    Thanks for responding Willoway. I don't expect to hear from TA.
    Yes, I am reluctant to reply to you for three reasons, one being that you are entitle to your opinion and second, your post is basically about “emotions” and shows that you did not pay attention to some of the details.

    And the third one.. I find it odd that you commented on a piece of writing which was clearly stated to be “my feelings when I read the article and the commentary” rahter than addressing someone directly…. There are lots of people and feelings... you can't point a spear at every windmill...

    However I will answer you, since i find that there are some fallacies in you logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    The fact that you don't cite the Russian board taking issue with that tells me a lot...that's all I'll say about that.
    Whatever it tells you, it tells you wrong…..

    If I would have listed the board and translated the comments it would be considered “board dragging”, which is usually not permitted on respectable boards.

    The Russian skating forum which I was referring to is well-known to many posters here who speak Russian, and the owner of this board often posts here and comes to many FSU meet-ups at the skating events.

    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    If you expect that Americans are going to accept every word out of every Russian's mouth, then you are on the wrong board because there are a lot of Americans here.
    The Russians don’t exactly shove their local articles in the faces of Americans for their scrutiny to “accept” or “not to accept”.

    The Russian interviews which are often posted on FSU, and severely attacked for their content and phrasing, are not the ones given to International press after a major International event.

    These are interviews for very specific sports publications in Russia, taken by Russian journalists, from Russian athletes/coaches/professionals, FOR the Russian audience/readers. They are conducted and presented in a style acceptable in Russia, for the Russians.

    The Russian-speaking posters find these articles and translate them, and you have the opportunity to basically “pick into someone’s private world”, which you would not be able to do otherwise.

    When you are given a privilege to pick into some-one’s private world, you keep your comments “on their ways of life” to yourself. If you came to Ethiopia and picked inside someone’s window and saw a family eating dinner with their hands, as disgusting as it may seem to you, you have no business running around critiquing their table manners, just because you eat with knife and fork. Then don’t look inside people’s “private houses and world”….

    If someone is polite in public, and not polite at home, you have a choice - not to go to his home. If he starts being rude in public - then you can speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    And regarding the 2nd half of your sentence…. “then you are on the wrong board because there are a lot of Americans here.
    I am not on the wrong board. This not an “American” board. This is an International Board, in all essence; FSU is “UN of Figure Skating”.

    The fact that there are more North Americans here, due to circumstances which have nothing to do with their accomplishments, i.e. use of English language as international language, a trend started by the British during Colonization, does not mean that FSU should be treated like “Americans’ sitting room” where they sit and watch a parade of foreign guests pass them by for purpose of scrutiny and evaluation according to “American standards”.

    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    IMO Russians are just as likely to be rude, crude, misguided, and/or deliberately misleading as any other nationality. Every Russian isn't a saint, contrary to what you would have us swallow.
    Allow me to inform you that there is no campaign to make non-Russians believe that Russians are saints.

    On the contrary... The whole argument is that we, Russians, in our own territory, can be rude, crude, bigotted, and every thing we chose to be... You don’t like it? Don’t pick into our windows…..

    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    I take a lot more issue with AD Sr's throwing his pairs team under the bus than I do his talking about his son, except to say, where's his family loyalty? .
    Here you are discussing “events” and in this given case “sports related issues and actions”, its different than critiquing “styles and forms of expression” which means crossing a dangerous line of critiquing ANOTHER CULTURE.

    When N. Morozov made a comment about Asian athletes having better physical abilities for jumps, you can disagree with the issue of “physical abilities”. But a lot of North American posters often don’t just argue the point, they start “digging into the guts of the speaker”, why he said it, what’s his moral make up, etc., and start giving labels such as “oh he is racist, he is bigot”…. Not by Russian standards he is not! Live with it! We are not like you, and don’t have the same PC standards….


    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    As for what he said about Jr, who's to say mom & dad & kid didn't talk about it? .
    Odd logic….. one of the participants, of the 3 that you have named, the “DAD” is to say “the other two did not talk to me about it’………..

    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    What if Jr went ahead with the split anyway? How valuable is it to have a great (in your words) coach if you don't get enough attention? .
    The answers to those are individual…. I am sure you have an opinion on these issues. But there is no need, like one poster stated, to label Arthur’s Sr. as a “Product of Old Soviet System” in a derogatory meaning…. Because again, YOU are picking into some-one’s PRIVATE WORLD, intended for Russians and not you.

    Next time a Russian makes comments to International press, or posts something on an International web-source – then it’s a fair game. But interviews as such – are not intended for foreigners' approval.

  2. #82

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    Exclamation

    But interviews as such – are not intended for foreigners' approval.
    So what is said in a public interview in Russia is private to Russians? As you described it this is a big cultural difference between us. What is said in the press in the U.S. is certainly open to comment/criticism/whatever-you-want by whomever reads it wherever they are. We don't have to state that it is for international consumption (or that some things are open for commentary, some are not - if that's true, it's a huge difference between our countries) - what's written is simply out there. Some people who comment may know more and some may know less, so one can choose who one pays attention to in terms of opinion but what is in print isn't intended or "not intended" for anyone specifically.

    A common expression here is "I may disagree with everything you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I guess you think differently; you imply that Russians in general agree with you. If so we are very different cultures.
    Last edited by Willowway; 01-09-2011 at 04:10 AM.

  3. #83
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    I do not get TA's point. What does it mean the interviews aren't intended for foreigners' approval? What does it have to do with anything? Class is class regardless of the culture. In what country is it ok to publically throw your kid under the bus? I am Russian and Arthur's interview didn't sit well with me. I didn't think it was outrageous, but it was a bit odd.

  4. #84

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    Thanks Natasha, it's good to know a Russian who doesn't agree. TA often makes these sweeping statements about what all Russians think and who knows if these comments are broadly true or just personal opinion (to which TA of course is entitled). Your comments are reassuring.

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Have you seen how in kiss&cry corner TAT talked to Griazev (or any other her student) when they skated badly? Or Buyanova to Denis Ten? ...Or Tikhonov to his guys when they were losing the game (ice-hockey)? A master scolding his pupil is not an unusual thing in that culture and it will not effect Russian judges' decisions. Of course when Russian coaches work with foreign skaters, they don't scold them in public because they are in the international environment and have to deal with a foreign culture. See my point? They adjust. So why some people can't adjust back and let the Russian coach to speak they way it is seen appropriate when he is inside ONE culture? I don't get all this fuss about AD Sr's interview.
    He didn't scold his team..he basically told the media that his team sucks & that they are not as good as their placement would indicate. That's a whole different thing. I can't believe that any student wouldn't find that totally unacceptable, no matter what nationality unless he/she was masochistic.

    ETA: Tinami Amori might just have well not answered my post since she didn't address anything specifically but just talked in circles trying to throw dust in our eyes so we wouldn't notice that she wasn't saying anything to the point. She should be a politician.
    Last edited by taf2002; 01-09-2011 at 04:25 AM.

  6. #86
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    I saw the name Tatiana Drutchinina so I had to google. I didn't know it was THAT Tatiana Drutchinina! So Artur Dmitriev was married to a World (ribbon) and European (ball) Champion!

    Tatiana Druchinina and Artur Dmitriev (=Artur Dmitriev Jr)
    Galina Beloglazova and Heino Ende (basketball player)
    Anna Kotchneva and Valeri Liukin (=Nastia)

    What was with these Russian rhythmic gymnasts?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by matti View Post
    Tatiana Druchinina and Artur Dmitriev (=Artur Dmitriev Jr)
    Galina Beloglazova and Heino Ende (basketball player)
    Anna Kotchneva and Valeri Liukin (=Nastia)

    What was with these Russian rhythmic gymnasts?
    Judging by the fact they all had children, I would guess that they were relying on the rhythm method.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willowway View Post
    "I may disagree with everything you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I guess you think differently; you imply that Russians in general agree with you. If so we are very different cultures.
    The context and the political environment during which Voltaire expressed his sentiments concerning the freedom of speech, which were later summed up by his followers in to the phrase you’re quoting, is quite different from the context of our disagreement.

    Voltaire was referring to political and religious disputes in the country, which at the time concerned one specific country and the two main and very serious subjects which affected each of his co-citizens in that country. He believed that the opinion of each side in such critical issues should be heard, even though he himself held very specific believes.

    Voltaire himself was prosecuted and had to move to England for expressing his political and religious views, and therefore defended ideologically one’s right express them regardless of partisanship.

    Voltaire however did not mean to give an approval to one Parisian citroen to look inside the window of another Parisian citroen, and then run down Saint Germain yelling “look! These people have ugly furniture and the husband is screaming at his wife”.

    Pluschenko made a comment to the international press about “his and Joubert’s lack of transitions” – all the commentary that followed, is a FAIR GAME.

    If Pluschenko said it somewhere locally in St. Petersburg, to the SPB press, intended to be ready by locals only – then any outsider who over-heard it or read it, should make his/her own conclusions, but not critique it – because it was not intended for the “outsiders’ ears”.

    North American blase attitude towards any information they come across results in harmful situations like Wiki-leaks…

    Not every piece of information one comes across is intended to blab about….. Since nobody “took a good stick to the butts” of an average Westerner yet, in regards to “information” and how to select what is to be handled discretely and what not, Wiki-leaks is not the last thing that will happen….

    You’ll suffer from the same “blase” from the others….. USA is already loosing standings, reputation and security in the world, because of too many “ideologues” who apply “ideologies” few centuries too late, in wrong situations, under wrong circumstances….. But you have your ideologies!!! That may soon be the very few things you have left if you don’t SHAPE UP and learn the concept of borders, enemies, and that it is a tough evil world out there….

    Just because you saw/heard something… does not always means it is your business, and that you should critique it, unless it has VITAL (life and death) consequences to you or others. Pick your battles…

    Quote Originally Posted by Natasha Miller View Post
    I am Russian and Arthur's interview didn't sit well with me. I didn't think it was outrageous, but it was a bit odd.
    I can see why someone would find it odd, yet, as you say “not outrageous”… . Individuals comment about "individuals"....

    I am arguing with those who found it close to “outrageous” and started to link it to the Huge Big Concept of Soviet Mentality and attributes of Russian Fatherhood…..

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    I can't believe that any student wouldn't find that totally unacceptable, no matter what nationality unless he/she was masochistic.
    Jeez... folks... this discussion is still on? Well, when in Rome, do as Romans do. Or, like Russians say, do not go to others' monastery with your own charter.

    I was scolded by my school teachers mil of times, never got pissed. Why would I have? Life is beautiful! They did it for me, for my better, I knew I should have done it better and deserved to be scolded.
    I was praised by my school teachers bil of times and graduated with what is known in Russia as "silver medal" (got one "4" in grade 9 that prevented me from getting a gold medal; medals used to give some previliges in uni entrance exams, canceled in 2009 after the United State Exam came to life) .
    And I even don't want to start about my ballroom dancing coaches...

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    The Russian skating forum which I was referring to is well-known to many posters here who speak Russian, and the owner of this board often posts here and comes to many FSU meet-ups at the skating events.
    Perhaps you should also mention you were either banned or came close to that on that forum for posts so rude that even the rude Russians considered it being out of place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    These are interviews for very specific sports publications in Russia, taken by Russian journalists, from Russian athletes/coaches/professionals, FOR the Russian audience/readers. They are conducted and presented in a style acceptable in Russia, for the Russians.
    Not quite true either. Vaitsekhovskaya knows I would be translating her articles for the FSU. As for Simonenko (the author of this interview) - I notified him after translating, but apparently he've been lurking for a while on the FSU and is well aware any good article (and his are really good) would be translated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    I am not on the wrong board. This not an “American” board. This is an International Board, in all essence; FSU is “UN of Figure Skating”.
    You keep forgetting it's not a Russian board either. Half of your posts include Russian words and expressions, the other half sayings such as `don't you know what X means in Russian?'. Why on earth do you expect anyone here to know what X means in Russian usually escapes me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    Allow me to inform you that there is no campaign to make non-Russians believe that Russians are saints.
    On the contrary... The whole argument is that we, Russians, in our own territory, can be rude, crude, bigotted, and every thing we chose to be... You don’t like it? Don’t pick into our windows…..
    I usually find it uneasy to read `we Russians' when it is coming from you. If am not mistaken you left the country more than 20 years ago, never being a Russian to begin with. Why do you have a nerve to write all the crap you are writing and claiming it is even remotely related to the reality I still can't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    When N. Morozov made a comment about Asian athletes having better physical abilities for jumps, you can disagree with the issue of “physical abilities”. But a lot of North American posters often don’t just argue the point, they start “digging into the guts of the speaker”, why he said it, what’s his moral make up, etc., and start giving labels such as “oh he is racist, he is bigot”….
    May be because some of the posters heard Morozov making much more harsh comments in real life and had a reason to call him all that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    The answers to those are individual…. I am sure you have an opinion on these issues. But there is no need, like one poster stated, to label Arthur’s Sr. as a “Product of Old Soviet System” in a derogatory meaning…. Because again, YOU are picking into some-one’s PRIVATE WORLD, intended for Russians and not you.
    I thought Dmitriev's private life was the world of his family, not the whole Russia, but hey, what do I know???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    Next time a Russian makes comments to International press, or posts something on an International web-source – then it’s a fair game. But interviews as such – are not intended for foreigners' approval.
    Well, I already wrote about that before, but just in case will repeat: some of the journalists (and the skaters) are well aware of the FSU and of their articles being translated to English. Simonenko included.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Perhaps you should also mention you were either banned or came close to that on that forum for posts so rude that even the rude Russians considered it being out of place..

    the rest....
    Tanka spare me the drama..... if any body.....

    I can't mention something that did not happen... Perhaps another forum, or another poster.... I am a proud "banned" in many places, believe me, but this time I can't claim the privilege....

    Tanka, as to your profound "westernization":

    It may get your applauds from quite few people on FSU, but do yourself a favor and unbend; your tush is attractive, but it won't get you a job or a green card... Not that you can handle the "Western-style work demands" anyway.

    And don’t forget to check in with the few waitresses in NY restaurants who, after your short visit, are still reading your long list of instructions on how to serve food, serve tea, wash dishes, cook good food and all the deep principles of customers service which they failed to provide you, and they are still looking for a tip.... and they are still whipping their tears of their faces after hearing how "customer service in America sucks".

    Go play "righteous westerner" with those who don't know you.....

  12. #92
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    Does anyone know what's up with Enbert's military service? Has he been released? Is he training?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    Tanka, as to your profound "westernization": (snip)
    Trying to picture TAHbKA flattering anyone to gain interest puts me in hysterics of laughter! That is sooo not TAHbKA!

    Indeed I have heard that she has fallen out with a waitress in New York. That's extraordinary! That never happens to anyone of any nationality! Only TAHbKA. (What is your point?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    Does anyone know what's up with Enbert's military service? Has he been released? Is he training?
    was answered partly a few pages back:
    If he is a member of any local SKA or the CSKA, it means he is in the army (SKA stands for "sport army club). They are free to do with him what they wish, which in reality means he will keep skating and training as an "army member", not just a regular skater, but occasionally he has to visit some real military services. I am not sure I follow the chronology of the events that Dmitriev briefly described. My understanding is that in autumn Enbert was drafted like a regular guy to the Internal Troops, then the FS people started the paper work and blah-blah, resulted in his being "moved" from one division to another and ended up in SKA.
    anyway, the father... the son... just watch and enjoy!

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-ylNGSd7lo (the father, 1992 OG, LP)
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWhUVFwHfZ8 (the son, RN this season, FS)

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Jeez... folks... this discussion is still on? Well, when in Rome, do as Romans do. Or, like Russians say, do not go to others' monastery with your own charter.

    I was scolded by my school teachers mil of times, never got pissed. Why would I have? Life is beautiful! They did it for me, for my better, I knew I should have done it better and deserved to be scolded.
    I was praised by my school teachers bil of times and graduated with what is known in Russia as "silver medal" (got one "4" in grade 9 that prevented me from getting a gold medal; medals used to give some previliges in uni entrance exams, canceled in 2009 after the United State Exam came to life) .
    And I even don't want to start about my ballroom dancing coaches...
    Yes the discussion is on. You are here, aren't you?

    Do either you or T.A. know how to read for understanding or know how to answer a direct question without giving us a history lesson...either Russian history or your life history?

    I said nothing about Arthur Sr criticizing his students in his teaching methods. My point was he dissed them to the press. Do you see the difference? If not, your command of English is not as good as you think & therefore I don't think we can communicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002
    the fact that you don't cite the Russian board taking issue with that tells me a lot...that's all I'll say about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori
    Whatever it tells you, it tells you wrong…..

    If I would have listed the board and translated the comments it would be considered “board dragging”, which is usually not permitted on respectable boards.
    You listed a bunch of things posted on that board but listing one more thing would have been "board dragging"?

    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002
    And regarding the 2nd half of your sentence…. “then you are on the wrong board because there are a lot of Americans here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori
    I am not on the wrong board. This not an “American” board. This is an International Board, in all essence; FSU is “UN of Figure Skating”.
    You didn't quote my whole sentence. I started my sentence with the word if . If is a very important word to the meaning of the sentence. I could give you a history of the word if but then I would be meandering like you do.

    I said "If you expect that Americans are going to accept every word out of every Russian's mouth, then you are on the wrong board because there are a lot of Americans here." Do you see how if changes the meaning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    Tanka, as to your profound "westernization":

    It may get your applauds from quite few people on FSU, but do yourself a favor and unbend; your tush is attractive, but it won't get you a job or a green card... Not that you can handle the "Western-style work demands" anyway.
    I find it rather offensive, and not even because it's a personal attack. It's a low personal attack, but worst of all, Tinami, it's a lazy one. So lazy as coping someone's work on a test where the question was so simple as "How much is 2 + 2?"

    I actually thought TAHbKA's post was very well-written. In the most part it addressed and argued with issues and points, and rather well I might add. How you could think you're going to win that argument with such an obvious exhibit of intellectual laziness is beyond me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willowway View Post
    Thanks Natasha, it's good to know a Russian who doesn't agree. TA often makes these sweeping statements about what all Russians think and who knows if these comments are broadly true or just personal opinion (to which TA of course is entitled). Your comments are reassuring.
    It is a personal opinion.
    I hope any broad generalization about a culture as diverse as Russian culture would be taken with some scepticism here.
    Last edited by dinakt; 01-09-2011 at 05:32 PM.
    improving my ballad- like lines

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinakt View Post
    I hope any broad generalization about a culture as diverse as Russian culture would be taken with scepticism here.
    I'm sure it is, but if a generalization must be made, I'd make the following: Russian coaches don't disparage their students, especially after a competition that was a huge success for them. (G/E made the Euros team by beating GP finalists I/M, only six months after Gerbolt switched to pairs, which is a terrific result for them.)

    Russian coaches do talk to the press about minor issues (minor weight gains etc,) about past issues (past training problems that have now been solved) or about obvious issues (not landing jumps consistently) but never put a current team down in a way that would tarnish their image in the eyes of the judges. G/E have been marked well at the Nationals, so is it their coach's role to make the judges think they should look more carefully for problems? A coach's role is to train the students on the ice, to correct their mistakes - not to make counter-propaganda in a judged sport.

    Dmitriev should take a leaf out of Moskvina's book. Her class, her tactfullness and her graciousness are exemplary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori
    I can't mention something that did not happen... Perhaps another forum, or another poster.... I am a proud "banned" in many places, believe me, but this time I can't claim the privilege....
    If I may ask, why were you banned from so many places and why are you so proud about it? There are better ways to express one's opinions when it comes to constructive criticism ... or is it destructive criticism in your case?
    Angie
    “I have not failed. I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.” ~ Thomas A. Edison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simone411 View Post
    If I may ask, why were you banned from so many places and why are you so proud about it? There are better ways to express one's opinions when it comes to constructive criticism ... or is it destructive criticism in your case?
    i find certain forum totally biased and moderators even more biased (it is a gymnastics forum), though i am yet to be banned, i am sure one day that will happen.

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    The thing is Tinami we live in an internet age, where articles and interviews do get translated all over. May I point out as well that figure skating is an international sport more than a local one, and as such the skaters are foolish if they don't think interviews are being translated. I will agree that when we need to take into account differences in culture/cultural expectations. But it seems to me that quite a few Russians thought Dimitriev was out of line.

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