Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 113
  1. #61
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    943
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Nan View Post
    I was attempting to point out that questioning her ability to communicate with a Russian or understand the Russian "mentality" was idiotic considering her long standing association with Kulik.
    Why idiotic? Plenty of foreigners who lived/live in Russia, either totally or partly, failed to catch the stuff completely. Nothing wrong with that. It happens all the time with foreign residents and not in Russia only.
    Last edited by let`s talk; 01-06-2011 at 01:04 PM.

  2. #62
    Home Sweet Home
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Searching for angst and voids.
    Posts
    4,365
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    20
    Thanks Tinami. I was thinking in more modern terms. The Russian orphanages of today are full of children where "fatherhood comes first"? But that's for another thread.

    Anyway, thanks for the translation TAHbKA.

  3. #63

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    9,541
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2819
    Quote Originally Posted by dupa View Post
    Thanks Tinami. I was thinking in more modern terms. The Russian orphanages of today are full of children where "fatherhood comes first"? But that's for another thread.
    True, and those orphanages are not exactly model either, to say the least.

    But Russia, by far, is not the blaring poster child for abandoned/fatherless children, compared to other parts of the world, ethnic groups and countries, so I did not make the connection between priorities of fatherhood in Russia and orphanages.

    It is a separate subject, true, but in brief, it is often the young single mothers, who often don’t know who the father is after a one-night stand, end up taking their children to orphanages for various reasons, most often economic.

    The laws in Russia regarding child support and the responsibilities of unmarried parents towards the child are pretty international, and very strongly and harshly enforced, especially against an absentee father. The mother of fatherless child has a lot less bureaucracy to follow, compared to North America, to garnish father’s wages.

    As well, by Russian laws, a child is entitled to a living space, room and board, not only at the residence of the primary care giver, most often mother, but at the father’s official residence as well, even if father has another family and children. Basically the mother can take the child, place it on the door steps of the father’s house, and leave, and by law, he’ll have to provide sufficient space and care for this child at his house, even if it means moving his and his wife’s bed into the hall-way, and place in its space a bed for the child…. .

    The original issue was how common it is for a Father, with in the framework of the Russian culture, to defame his son/child in public. The answer is: it is not uncommon, and in many cases such behavior is viewed as noble and honorable, and certain examples which I listed above confirm that.

  4. #64

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,819
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    36867
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    The original issue was how common it is for a Father, with in the framework of the Russian culture, to defame his son/child in public. The answer is: it is not uncommon, and in many cases such behavior is viewed as noble and honorable, and certain examples which I listed above confirm that.
    Would this case be considered noble and honorable?
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  5. #65

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    9,541
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2819
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Would this case be considered noble and honorable?
    Since you asked…..

    I certainly can’t speak for the whole country of Russia. I can give you my reaction and reactions on Russian skating forums.

    My reaction:

    I read the interview in Russian, and then in English. Nothing in the interview even slightly attracted my attention as odd, including the Arthur Sr. vs Jr. part, since I am not interested at this point in Arthur Jr’s skating.

    Then I read the “western posters” comments on FSU about Sr. vs. Jr. issue, and though to myself “oh, brother! Americans are again unhappy about something a Russian said, if its not one thing, it’s the other.... Russians just don't talk like Americans expect their celebrities to talk, what a tragedy... like efxxxing missionaries, there is only one God, Jesus Christ, and there is only one Political Correctness and Morality – the American way”.

    So I went back and this time concentrated on the “controversial” comments.

    Still could not find anything wrong with them: This is a sports publication. An interview is taken after a sports event. Dmitriev Sr. is a famous athlete and prominent coach. His son is one of the top Russian prospects. Dmitriev’s wife is a skating choreographer. Mishin and Vodorezova are prominent coaches. It’s perfectly NORMAL to criticize your son’s professional choices in a context of this sport…..

    Then I looked at Dmitriev’s Sr. comments to see if i agree with them or not. I agree that leaving a coach such as Mishin is a serious decision. Mishins do not come dime a dozen, and Mishins do not take just any body, training with the likes of Mishin is a PRIVELEDGE AND AN HONOR.

    I think it is a betrayal to leave a coach like Mishin. When coaches like Mishin take you – you better stick it out, and PROVE TO HIM that you are worthy of his attention and effort.

    I practically stopped being Sasha Cohen’s fan after she left Tarasova, for the same reasons. Sasha was almost dead for me after that…. You don’t leave coaches like Tarasova unless it’s Armageddon….

    Jr. would do better to consult his father, given his father is not a private person, but a Professional in many aspects of this sport. I can see a general rebellion, never mind mother, never mind father – I am off to do my own thing… But this was not the case, he sided with mother…. I don’t blame Sr. for being upset.

    I thought it was good that Sr. can be objective about his own son, in regards to professional issues of the sport.

    If Sr. would have crossed the line and started discussing personal issues not related to the sport, I would think that it is wrong. But he did not, and I agree with him.

    That’s it for me.

    Russian skating forums. Only one has a brief discussion... Russia is not freaking out over this interview.... .

    This article is posted in only 1 skating forum, the better one. I did not find any other discussions in Russian sports chats or post-article readers’ discussions. In that one skating forum, the topic is 2.5 pages long, total of 48 posts.

    1/2 of posts are discussing the whole article.
    1/4 of posts are discussing if Arthur Dmitriev-Jr. made the right decision to leave Mishin and train with Vodorezhova.
    ¼ of posts are discussing issues around Arthur Dmitriev’s comments about his son, and in a nutshell the comments are as following (I am intentionally avoiding exact phrasing, since some of the posters from forum read FSU).

    - Father should not betray his son like that in public.

    - Where did he betray his son? The son did not even bother to consult his professional father who obviously knows what’s best, and went behind his back! I liked this interview how Sr. is talking, what he said about his students; how he is not covering up/praising his son; how objective he is about the situation.

    - (clapping to the last post) +1000 points (right on!)

    - Guys, quit dissecting internal private family squabbles…..

    - Both mother (Vodorezova) and father (Dmitriev) neglected the Junior (his skating)… When mother and father are shoe-makers – the child often without shoes…. With choreographer-mother, he sure had lousy choreography….. and where was the father, while Junior was learning to skate? Father started paying attention only when the kid learned something on his own…. But it’s too late to establish something…. They all should have been consulting on the issue…… etc.

    - Yep, not only the kid evaded the eyes of this parents, Mishin was not that pro-active either and it’s not that he (Mishin) did not do much for him, Mishin simply did not push hard enough and left the kid to his own devices.

    - Vodorezova maybe a good choice now….. she is not very busy due to lack of top elite skaters.

    - Where did you guys hear that Dmitriev Sr. neglected the Junior (his skating)?… this is news to me, I watched and have not noticed…..

    - Maybe Dmitriev Sr. said about “betrayal” to look good with Mishin….

    - I am kind of thinking…. Is it possible the interviewer gave some of Dmitriev comments his own spin? Family business is family’s business.

    - No. This reporter is a decent guy, he would not “spin”….

    - Arthur Jr. knows better than both mother and father what’s good for him… I am a parent myself, I know how it works…. Naturally, the Father (Arthur Sr.) got offended, and started spilling the beans…..

    That’s all I could find in the Russian print/net…..

  6. #66
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    943
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by dupa View Post
    I was thinking in more modern terms. The Russian orphanages of today are full of children where "fatherhood comes first"?
    Orphanages are for kids without mothers with parental rights. I doubt that the number of mother-less kids in Russian orphanages is much more different than in any G8 country.
    As for the child support that the father must pay, the previous poster already explained you how it works. I just add that unlike in some States the sum of child support is not changeable, even if the mother remarries or gets a better-paid job: 25% for one kid, 33% for two kids, 50% for three kids or more of the father's income.

    Speaking about a historical figure like Peter the Great or a fictional character like Taras Bulba in "pre-modern" times, the responsibility of a father was to grow up a good Man and a soldier for his family and the country. When the father failed to do that, who took all responsibility for this failure on himself. So, fatherhood again counted first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    Then I read the “western posters” comments on FSU about Sr. vs. Jr. issue, and though to myself “oh, brother! Americans are again unhappy about something a Russian said, if its not one thing, it’s the other.... Russians just don't talk like Americans expect their celebrities to talk, what a tragedy... like efxxxing missionaries, there is only one God, Jesus Christ, and there is only one Political Correctness and Morality – the American way”.

  7. #67

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,819
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    36867
    Thanks for answering my question, Tinami. It sure was insightful to say the least.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  8. #68
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    3,507
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    leaving a coach such as Mishin is a serious decision. Mishins do not come dime a dozen, and Mishins do not take just any body, training with the likes of Mishin is a PRIVELEDGE AND AN HONOR.

    I think it is a betrayal to leave a coach like Mishin. When coaches like Mishin take you – you better stick it out, and PROVE TO HIM that you are worthy of his attention and effort.

    I practically stopped being Sasha Cohen’s fan after she left Tarasova, for the same reasons. Sasha was almost dead for me after that…. You don’t leave coaches like Tarasova unless it’s Armageddon….
    Perfectly said!

  9. #69

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    On the brink
    Posts
    9,896
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1444
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    I practically stopped being Sasha Cohen’s fan after she left Tarasova, for the same reasons. Sasha was almost dead for me after that…. You don’t leave coaches like Tarasova unless it’s Armageddon…..
    Sasha didn't leave Tarasova, Tarasova left Sasha.

  10. #70
    Port de bras!!!
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Ravenclaw
    Posts
    30,119
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    33169
    I thought that decision was mutual.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  11. #71

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    On the brink
    Posts
    9,896
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1444
    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I thought that decision was mutual.
    Not the way TT told it. She said she spoke to Robin Wagner about taking Sasha and then met with Sasha and her mother and told them she was going back to Russia and Wagner was waiting for their call.

  12. #72
    Port de bras!!!
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Ravenclaw
    Posts
    30,119
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    33169
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Not the way TT told it. She said she spoke to Robin Wagner about taking Sasha and then met with Sasha and her mother and told them she was going back to Russia and Wagner was waiting for their call.
    She also told a completely different story to the Russian press at the time. TAT is not known for the consistency of her stories. I doubt we will ever know exactly what happened.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  13. #73
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    9,948
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Not the way TT told it. She said she spoke to Robin Wagner about taking Sasha and then met with Sasha and her mother and told them she was going back to Russia and Wagner was waiting for their call.
    Incredible! What if Cohen and her mother didn't want Wagner?

  14. #74

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    On the brink
    Posts
    9,896
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1444
    There weren't a lot of other choices. Almost all of the other top level coaches were committed to skaters in direct competition with Cohen by that point in the season.

  15. #75

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,477
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    918
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    ...Then I looked at Dmitriev’s Sr. comments to see if i agree with them or not. I agree that leaving a coach such as Mishin is a serious decision. Mishins do not come dime a dozen, and Mishins do not take just any body, training with the likes of Mishin is a PRIVELEDGE AND AN HONOR.

    I think it is a betrayal to leave a coach like Mishin. When coaches like Mishin take you – you better stick it out, and PROVE TO HIM that you are worthy of his attention and effort...
    Well he may have "betrayed" Mishin, but I actually liked Yagudin's skating more after he left Mishin, and it certainly wasn't a career killer for him. But then again, he took the excellent technique he got from Mishin had it re-packaged by TAT and presented a very polished well-rounded skater IMO.

    I do understand what you are saying though. Mishin is certainly one of the best coaches in the sport, and leaving him is a serious decision. I just wish some of the choreography for Mishin students was a bit different.

  16. #76
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    943
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    She said she spoke to Robin Wagner about taking Sasha and then met with Sasha and her mother and told them she was going back to Russia and Wagner was waiting for their call.
    Links, please.

    Here's google options (western and russian):
    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...al-sasha-cohen
    http://ptichkafs.livejournal.com/118...l?thread=30793

  17. #77

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Thankfukky watching skating
    Posts
    13,646
    vCash
    317
    Rep Power
    41192
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori
    Then I read the “western posters” comments on FSU about Sr. vs. Jr. issue, and though to myself “oh, brother! Americans are again unhappy about something a Russian said, if its not one thing, it’s the other.... Russians just don't talk like Americans expect their celebrities to talk, what a tragedy... like efxxxing missionaries, there is only one God, Jesus Christ, and there is only one Political Correctness and Morality – the American way”.
    If you expect that Americans are going to accept every word out of every Russian's mouth, then you are on the wrong board because there are a lot of Americans here. IMO Russians are just as likely to be rude, crude, misguided, and/or deliberately misleading as any other nationality. Every Russian isn't a saint, contrary to what you would have us swallow.

    I take a lot more issue with AD Sr's throwing his pairs team under the bus than I do his talking about his son, except to say, where's his family loyalty? If that pairs team stays with him they are absolute idiots. I don't applaud his honesty. In the 40+ years I have been watching skating, I don't ever remember any coach of any nationality disparaging his own students like that. The fact that you don't cite the Russian board taking issue with that tells me a lot...that's all I'll say about that.

    As for what he said about Jr, who's to say mom & dad & kid didn't talk about it? What if Jr went ahead with the split anyway? How valuable is it to have a great (in your words) coach if you don't get enough attention? But IMO any discussion about what Sr felt about that decision should have stayed in the family. So sue me...I think family solidarity trumps the media's wish to know.

  18. #78

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    1,610
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2138
    Taf, totally agree on the majority of your points which are stated very clearly.
    Last edited by Willowway; 01-08-2011 at 08:40 PM.

  19. #79

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Thankfukky watching skating
    Posts
    13,646
    vCash
    317
    Rep Power
    41192
    Quote Originally Posted by Willowway View Post
    Taf, totally agree on the majority of your points which are stated very clearly.
    Thanks for responding Willoway. I don't expect to hear from TA.

  20. #80
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    943
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    If that pairs team stays with him they are absolute idiots. I don't applaud his honesty. In the 40+ years I have been watching skating, I don't ever remember any coach of any nationality disparaging his own students like that.
    Have you seen how in kiss&cry corner TAT talked to Griazev (or any other her student) when they skated badly? Or Buyanova to Denis Ten? ...Or Tikhonov to his guys when they were losing the game (ice-hockey)? A master scolding his pupil is not an unusual thing in that culture and it will not effect Russian judges' decisions. Of course when Russian coaches work with foreign skaters, they don't scold them in public because they are in the international environment and have to deal with a foreign culture. See my point? They adjust. So why some people can't adjust back and let the Russian coach to speak they way it is seen appropriate when he is inside ONE culture? I don't get all this fuss about AD Sr's interview.

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •