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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squibble View Post
    Actually, one judge placed Seyfert first in the FS. But another one placed her sixth!

    http://www.sports-reference.com/olym...e-skating.html
    Wow, and Janet Lynn got from 3rd to 10th!
    In my spare time, I like to interview figure skating legends.

  2. #42
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    I think like Schuba, Peggy Flemming had usually such a cushion after figures that she could afford several mistakes in the free skate and still win overall. That being said, I never thought that Peggy watered down her LP content even with her big figures lead - she still had 2 or 3 2 axels planned in the program, plus some 2-2 combinations.


    Even a free skate like Seyfert's 1970 World Championship LP (which she had to come from behind to beat Schuba) would still not have been able to beat Flemming overall. Unfortunately, the video for that free skate is no longer on youtube.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squibble View Post
    Actually, one judge placed Seyfert first in the FS. But another one placed her sixth!
    The Ossi judge put her first and the Kanadian sixth.
    http://winter-olympic-memories.com/h...igure_w_ex.htm

    They had to do only five figures at the 1968 Olympics. I think the easiest one was omitted (the counter?), but it was still 60% of the total score. Four years later the weight of the figures was dropped to 50%, but they did all the six figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Looking at points Fleming seems even more dominant than Schuba was in figures.
    Hmmmm 1968 figures were 60% of the total score, 1969-72 only 50%.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squibble View Post
    On a different, related note, why is Seyfert's "triple loop" at 1968 Worlds credited as the first triple loop by a woman,
    Was it? Where is it documented that it was credited? I'd never heard of it before this thread.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Was it? Where is it documented that it was credited? I'd never heard of it before this thread.
    Everything I've ever read on the subject says that in 1968 Seyfert became the first woman to land a triple loop in competition, and the now-vanished Youtube video, posted by Eva Pawlik's son ("viennapianoman") said specifically that it was at Euros (and indeed showed it in all its underrotated glory). Her 1968 Olympic FS was up too, and I think her 1968 Worlds one was as well. She certainly didn't do one at the Olympics.

    It may be that back in 1968, no one at the ISU was ratifying jumps the way they did in Bonaly's day. In 1968, very few women had even attempted a triple jump in competition, and it was extremely unusual for a man to attempt more than one in a single program.

  6. #46
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    wow, the lost history of gender barrier breaking. can you not contact whomever used to have that youtube account?

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    I had always heard Priscilla Hill as being the first to land it in competition.

    This page supports that.

    I wouldn't be surprised if American or German sources interpret "first" differently. There aren't any official ISU sources on the subject, are there?

  8. #48
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    When I interviewed Barbara Ann Scott, she was listed as the first woman to land a 2lutz. But recently I read someone else got that credit (can't remember who).
    In my spare time, I like to interview figure skating legends.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    .... I agree Fleming was vastly overrated as a free skater but Seyfert couldnt have beaten her even if she had easily won the free skating. ......
    And nobody has mentioned the obvious: Peggy Fleming had "The Look" (physical beauty of face & figure) to wins fans to the sport and sell magazine covers. You don't think that that doesn't play into judging via the 'Artistic Impression' mark and even today in the 'PCS'? Of course it did...and does, in a watered-down manner. (Not as blatantly as before.)

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by matti View Post
    Hmmmm 1968 figures were 60% of the total score, 1969-72 only 50%.
    I mean by the scores out of 6.0 via one another.

  11. #51
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    Fleming's skating did not appear to be as athletic as Seyfert or Maskova. However, she was balletic, flexible and sublime. Her abilities in Figures suggest that while princessy, she had good edges. As mentioned, she did have the full complement of jumps for the time and so much of her program was linked together with transitions and MITF. Perhaps the Olympic judges appreciated this and is why she won handily. In fact, I believe she had a row of 5.9s for Artistic impression

    I do recall years after her win, she noted in an interview that she was disappointed with her '68 Grenoble LP, and I recall her popping a jump or two when I watched it. IOW, it wasn't captivating or anything but I have never ever recalled her win being labeled 'controversial' or a head-scratcher.

    BTW, ETA - There was another top US lady up to the mid-60s. I think she retired before Grenoble but I think she may have competed post- Innsbruck '64. Her name was Christine Haigler and she was a top US competitor post-1961 crash for quite a few years. I wonder what happened to her?

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    Peggy fell out of her double lutz early, singled her 2nd double axel out of a spreadeagle, 2footed her second double flip and popped her final double sal into a single with a double 3 out of it. Considering that, her marks at the Olympics are a bit of a joke, but Gaby didn't skate all that great either. I believe she left out some of her combo's and both her double axels were very tight.

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    re: Tina Noyes

    I never saw her skate, but I am sure I saw her coaching around Boston (skating club of Boston, Hayden, Burlington ice rink) and at competitions when I was a kid (late 70s).

    She must have been one of the youngest pros around. She did not look any older than the young skaters she was coaching.

    I definitely remember reading about her participating in Olympic torch runs when the games came to the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Jutta Muller retired after Evelyn Grossman dropped out, which was just a year or two after the reunification of the two Germanys. I read somewhere that she had problems with her eyes, having had several eye operations. Witt helped her financially and may still do so.
    According to Katarina Witt's book Mueller is not allowed to coach in the new German Skating Federation. Witt doesn't say whether the ban is official or unofficial, but I remember they tried to ban Ingo Steuer for rumored Stasi connections, but relented when S/S refused to compete without him.

    Witt doesn't say why Mueller is banned, but she implies that it is because of Mueller's former political connections to East Germany. Wasn't her second husband (Herr Mueller) an East German official?

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    BTW, ETA - There was another top US lady up to the mid-60s. I think she retired before Grenoble but I think she may have competed post- Innsbruck '64. Her name was Christine Haigler and she was a top US competitor post-1961 crash for quite a few years. I wonder what happened to her?
    Christine Haigler's married name is Krall; she is a coach in Colorado Springs. I believe she retired from competition after the 1964/65 season. If I remember correctly, she won the 1965 U.S. silver medal on the strength of her figures. She placed first in that phase, but had a disappointing free skate and, of course, was overtaken by Peggy Fleming. Tina Noyes was third that year.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by nylynnr View Post
    Christine Haigler's married name is Krall;
    She is Patrick Chan's coach in case anyone is wondering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerek View Post
    I recall that Mueller's students were even known to recycle the same dresses... There is footage of Evelyn Grossmann wearing a long program dress that both Witt and Poetszch wore earlier
    I wouldn't be surprised if recycled dresses were common in those days. Skating wasn't a money sport back then. Dorothy wore a homemade dress to the Olympics.

    I always felt sorry for Anett Poetsch. She was forced to retire immediately after winning the OGM. No shows, nothing. Imagine having to quit cold turkey at the peak of your career.

    Katarina must have been quite a force to reckon with. She was allowed to tour and to train for a second Olympics. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during training with Frau Mueller. Apparently she trained Katarina, Anett, and Jan Hoffman together.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if recycled dresses were common in those days. Skating wasn't a money sport back then. Dorothy wore a homemade dress to the Olympics.

    I always felt sorry for Anett Poetsch. She was forced to retire immediately after winning the OGM. No shows, nothing. Imagine having to quit cold turkey at the peak of your career.

    Katarina must have been quite a force to reckon with. She was allowed to tour and to train for a second Olympics. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during training with Frau Mueller. Apparently she trained Katarina, Anett, and Jan Hoffman together.
    I remember reading SI articles as a teen and in 1986, there were printed rumors in an SI issue that Witt might retire after '86 Worlds but those were quickly quashed when she lost to Debi, and she said she'd be around to try and get back the title in '87. Glad she did. Even if not a fan, her '87 Worlds LP was a joy to watch.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    She is Patrick Chan's coach in case anyone is wondering.
    Oh - thank you! I was wondering who she was!

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during training with Frau Mueller.
    Here's an excerpt from Katarina's book, Only With Passion:

    "She was my teacher, and as such always had to be ready to crack the whip. I never saw her soft moments, because she wouldn't show them to me. It wasn't because she didn't have them. I never saw her cry. She was always strong and independent, and I trusted her. Listen, to be a world-class athlete, most of the time you need to go beyond your pain limit. You can get to it on your own, but you need someone to push you over. Otherwise you'll never improve. And for that you need a coach. It's very difficult to be a great coach and at the same time be a friend. That's why I never called her by her first name, Jutta. It was always Frau Muller, and still is.

    "You coach can't be the enemy. She must be someone you trust, because, after all, you're on the same side. You're pulling on the same rope. But neither should your coach be someone you can go have a drink with, because then it get easy to say: 'I don't want to do this today. We'll do it tomorrow.' The coach's goal every day is to get the best out of you, to suck the greatness out of you, and that's hard. Frau Muller had to be my enemy sometimes. I had to hate her. I had to feel aggressive toward her, so I'd be able to work under her discipline. If she'd been my friend, I'd have walked off when she told me to keep doing a triple, even if I fell fifty times. There has to be an element of fear. That's the only way, I think. That's why some other skaters quit. They couldn't take her anger and turn it into their own energy, as I learned to do. They'd just get more frustrated and think they were worthless. I was very strong, very stubborn, and could forget very quickly. I could walk off the ice after she'd screamed at me for half an hour, and after a fifteen-minute break come back on, and we'd look at each other and say, 'Okay, now we work on something else.' Then you start from scratch. That's something you should be able to do. I was always pretty good at sleeping problems away. Every day's a new day. That's importnat for a skater, or any athlete. And you know what? She would hug me as well, and say, 'Kati, I just want your best.' And I always believed her."
    And another quote:

    Some coaches just teach to make a living. Other coaches, like Frau Muller, live for the sport. She skated in the 1950's, but was never a star herself. In those years the GDR never did well internationally. At one point they hired an English coach, Megan Taylor, to try to improve their performances at the World Championships, but she left after one season. "Those East German skaters have what it takes to go to the World Championships, all right," the Englishwoman told a reporter after she'd left. "But only as ticket takers."

    Frau Muller never forgot that slight, and it motivated her in her career as a coach. She proved the Englishwoman wrong, too. Under her tutelage, GDR skaters won ten World Championships between 1969 and 1980. Her daughter, Gabriele Seyfert, and Anett Potzsch and Jan Hoffmann all won twice, and I won four times. Frau Muller was the most successful coach of her generation.

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