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  1. #21
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    In hindsight, if she had stuck with just the 3toe3toe, I believe she could have been even more successful at the world championships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    In hindsight, if she had stuck with just the 3toe3toe, I believe she could have been even more successful at the world championships.
    She probably would have won the 2000 Worlds with just a 3 toe-3 toe since that panel was clearly wanting one of the Russian ladies to win, and Butyrskaya had already mucked up her performance. The 2001 Worlds? Not sure really, only if the overall performance was much better than it was that night.

    2002 and 2006 Olympics she probably should have gone in with that plan. That is all she would have needed to win, if that.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    She probably would have won the 2000 Worlds with just a 3 toe-3 toe since that panel was clearly wanting one of the Russian ladies to win, and Butyrskaya had already mucked up her performance. The 2001 Worlds? Not sure really, only if the overall performance was much better than it was that night.

    2002 and 2006 Olympics she probably should have gone in with that plan. That is all she would have needed to win, if that.
    That's right but she was more ambitious and went for difficult combos with loop at the end. It's likely that the judges would have given her the gold at 2001 Worlds just for 3S+3L+2T but again she was more ambitious and wanted to land two very difficult 3+3+2 combinations! There aren't many ladies who could even dream about 3Lz+3L including Yu-na Kim and Mao Asada.

  4. #24
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    ^^ Um, Mao did 3f-3lo regularly in her jumping prime, so I'm sure she was capable of 3(f)lz-3lo as well, especially considering her 3f really looks like a 3lz due to the way she preps for it. Right now, no, I don't think she could pull it off, but a few years ago she most certainly could.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    ^^ Um, Mao did 3f-3lo regularly in her jumping prime, so I'm sure she was capable of 3(f)lz-3lo as well
    Correct, when she first burst onto the scene her jump layout was 3Lz+3Lo, 3F, 2A in the short, and 3Lz+3Lo in the free.

    In regards to Slutskaya, I think I remember her saying loop combinations came earlier to her, similar to Miki Ando.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    In hindsight, if she had stuck with just the 3toe3toe, I believe she could have been even more successful at the world championships.
    Maybe. But her reputation could also have been hurt. She was probably helped by being known as the great athlete that attempted very difficult triple-triples. If all she ever had planned was the same jump content as Michelle, would they have gone with Irina if they both landed the same jumps? IMO, without the triple-triples, the only thing she did better than Michelle was skater faster.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Rey View Post
    Maybe. But her reputation could also have been hurt. She was probably helped by being known as the great athlete that attempted very difficult triple-triples. If all she ever had planned was the same jump content as Michelle, would they have gone with Irina if they both landed the same jumps? IMO, without the triple-triples, the only thing she did better than Michelle was skater faster.
    She was a far better spinner, too. And her jumps, had double the size of Michelle's. Sorry, but at their best I find Irina much more exciting to watch than Kwan IMO. Kwan didn't have any standout choreography after 98, and that was supposed to be her advantage over someone as "sloppy" as

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    She was a far better spinner, too. And her jumps, had double the size of Michelle's. Sorry, but at their best I find Irina much more exciting to watch than Kwan IMO. Kwan didn't have any standout choreography after 98, and that was supposed to be her advantage over someone as "sloppy" as
    Technically Irina was far superior to Kwan in their prime. Her jumps were way higher and more powerful and this was what built Irina's reputation as sensational jumper, beside her difficult triple-triples. She had some difficult transitions before some of her jumps too, e.g. before lutz and loop, or axel in SPs. Irina was also far better spinner, some of her 6.0 spins could be given higher level than 1 under CoP what is rare for 6.0 spins. Quality of her spins was better as well. Irina was also faster across the ice than Michelle. The only techinal thing which Michelle did better was spirals. Of course artistry is another issue but for me Irina's exuberance was her artistry.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Rey View Post
    Maybe. But her reputation could also have been hurt. She was probably helped by being known as the great athlete that attempted very difficult triple-triples. If all she ever had planned was the same jump content as Michelle, would they have gone with Irina if they both landed the same jumps? IMO, without the triple-triples, the only thing she did better than Michelle was skater faster.
    It is difficult to say I guess. However at the peak of their rivalry in 2000-2002 Irina tended to be given higher technical marks than Kwan even when they landed similar (on occasion even less for Irina) jump content and/or made similar mistakes. Whether that was deserved or not is open for debate but that tended to be the case. So I think Irina could definitely outscore Kwan on the technical mark with just a triple toe-triple toe if that is what both did. Whether she would be able to win overall combined with the presentation mark with both doing the triple toe-triple toe is another issue.

    I think at the 2000 Worlds even though Kwan's performance was amazing and should have been virtually unbeatable in the long program phase atleast, the judges were expecting to place Irina and Maria in the top 2 and Michelle 3rd (it was a very Eurocentric panel and Kwan didnt have the momentum at that point either). So if Irina had done the triple toe-triple toe only that year but skated cleanly she would have won for sure IMO. Well as long as Maria also didnt skate cleanly in the long program that is which of course she didnt.

    At the 2001 Worlds I am not nearly as sure. I think that is a harder call to what the judges would have done. As someone else said if she had stayed the course after just landing the triple salchow-triple loop-double toe (a harder combination than Michelle's) she probably had a good chance though, but then she tried for even more and messed up her performance somewhat and lost.

  10. #30
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    How did Michelle and Irina skate at their first head to head during the 1999-2000 season? It seems like they both skated at Skate Canada and Irina won. Did Michelle skate badly? If that was one of Irina's first competition during her comeback year, and if they both skated well then that could probably tell us how the judges would have marked her without a reputation as the more technical athlete.

    I say that IMO the only thing that Irina did better, without any debate, is that she was a faster skater.

    They both had good ice coverage.
    Irina was a faster spinner and had some interesting spins, but Michelle was not an inadequate spinner either and she had great positions. Irina had the Bielmann spins, but they tended to travel. Michelle was able to show off her flexibility with her Y-spin.

    Irina had awesomely huge jumps, but she also tended to telegraph and come to a stand still on the landings. Michelle had beautiful landings and flow out her jumps.

    Michelle had better spirals.

    I think they both had equally difficult footwork.

  11. #31
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    Actually Michelle and Irina didnt meet in the fall of 99. They met in the fall of 2000 at Skate Canada. Irina did win handily getting all the 1st place votes but 1 judge in each program. Both skated excellent shorts with Michelle skating her Rush program which she would soon dump. Both skated adequate but flawed longs with about 5 clean triples each. I thought the gap between the two skaters was somewhat inflated at this event and I thought Michelle's short was undermarked.

    However the short program judging between the two during this period was consistent with the judges considering Irina the strongest technical skater in womens skating at the time, even a notch above Michelle. They just felt her elements were the better ones all things equal. I dont think it was jump content as Irina did a triple lutz-double loop and Michelle a triple lutz-double toe as the only difference but that is only a .2 difference (almost nothing today) in points under COP to put it into perspective. Under 6.0 it may have been seen as a more valuable difference to the judges though.

    Irina was the judges pet the whole 00-01 season until Worlds. She easily beat Michelle several times for comparable performances. Her most controversial win of all was of course at NHK where Maria Butyrskaya had the best performance of any women that season until Worlds and still was beaten by Irina. Maria was so upset she didnt even stand on the podium. The Worlds panel was different though and seemed to favor Michelle and Irina equally, so Irina really was going to have to earn her win there which I think threw her off.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Technically Irina was far superior to Kwan in their prime. Her jumps were way higher and more powerful and this was what built Irina's reputation as sensational jumper, beside her difficult triple-triples.
    Well, Irina has much more power. But you can't say Irina is technically superior.
    Michelle's jumping technique is very good. The only jumps Irina does better than Michelle are the 2Axel and the 3Loop.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Well, Irina has much more power. But you can't say Irina is technically superior.
    Michelle's jumping technique is very good. The only jumps Irina does better than Michelle are the 2Axel and the 3Loop.

    Irina did ALL jumps better than Michelle since she got much more height on them. And besides, she didn't flutz as much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    The only jumps Irina does better than Michelle are the 2Axel and the 3Loop.
    Preposterous statement of the week! There are kits of things Kwan did better than Slutskaya but jumping (and spinning) was not one of them!

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by alchemy void View Post
    Preposterous statement of the week! There are kits of things Kwan did better than Slutskaya but jumping (and spinning) was not one of them!
    My point is that technically, Michelle's jumps are very good. Her jumping technique was excellent, her take-off were clean, and her landing way better than Irina's. It's part of jumping technique, like it or not.
    Although, I agree that Irina's jumps were more athletic and more impressive.

    Figure skating technique is not just about athleticism.

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    Did I wake up in 2002?

    Ant

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Well, Irina has much more power. But you can't say Irina is technically superior.
    Michelle's jumping technique is very good. The only jumps Irina does better than Michelle are the 2Axel and the 3Loop.
    I would say they are close to equal in the triple lutz, triple flip, and triple toe (some would say I am being generous to Kwan here). I would say Irina is easily better in the triple loop, triple salchow, and double axel.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I would say they are close to equal in the triple lutz, triple flip, and triple toe (some would say I am being generous to Kwan here).
    Slutskaya had miles more height than Kwan on the toe jumps.
    I hear outside a million panicking birds, and know even out there comfort is done with; it has shattered even the stars, this creature at last come home to me.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by orientalplane View Post
    Slutskaya had miles more height than Kwan on the toe jumps.
    I thought Kwan had a quite big and almost textook triple toe and I give her brownie points since her triple toe-triple toe combination was outstanding.

    I was impressed how Kwan would do a triple lutz very late in her long program and land it very consistently and often with good height and flow. I give her extra points for that. Irina's triple lutz in the short is definitely (usually) better.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    My point is that technically, Michelle's jumps are very good. Her jumping technique was excellent, her take-off were clean, and her landing way better than Irina's. It's part of jumping technique, like it or not.
    Although, I agree that Irina's jumps were more athletic and more impressive.

    Figure skating technique is not just about athleticism.
    Technically, Michelle's jumps are very good, but Irina's ones are just better. Both had full set of consistent triples and now compare them.

    Lutz - the most difficult jump and Irina's highest one. Way higher than Michelle (2x). Sometimes however she lost speed at the end while Michelle had usually better flow out of it. We must remember though it was not always like that. Many of Irina's lutzes had good flow. Both had similar transition before the lutz. Michelle flutzed, Irina took off from flat or slight outside edge so next point for her. Both used the jump in combination, Irina usually with double loop, Michelle usually with double toe. This season the difference is bigger, 1.4 for 2T and 1.8 for 2L. However, Irina tried the most difficult triple-triple (3Lz+3L) and landed it succesfully three times in her career. Michelle tried it once and in fact did 3Lz and 2.25L and fell. Irin wins lutz.

    Flip - Irina's one way higher (2x). Usually she didn't lose speed on the flip landing, but still I would give point for flow to Michelle. Both had the same entrance - one three-turn. Both didn't lip. Because of huge height and power, I give the flip to Irina.

    Loop - Again, Irina had much more height. Flow I think comparable though Michelle just a little bit better. Irina's entrance much more difficult - four back three turns. Michelle didn't have any transitions before the loop. Beside it, Irina used it in combinations as opposed to Michelle's double toe. Sometimes however, Irina pulled off 3S+3L or 3Lz+3L. Michelle wasn't able to execute triple-triple with loop at the end. Irina easily wins here.

    Salchow - Irina's one much higher for the fourth time. And this time flow is equall, I can hardly remember Irina losing speed at the end of salchow. The same entrance though Irina in her late career sometimes used Sasha's entrance (back three-turn on right foot). Salchow easily goeas to Irina.

    Toeloop - this was the lowest Irina's toe jump, though still she had more height than Michelle. In terms of flow Michelle wins with beautiful flowing edge out of the jump. Different entrance but difficulty of it I think the same. In case of using it in combination, the only triple-triple Michelle did was 3T+3T and it was usually very well done. Irina did this combo cleanly only once (out of three attempts) and her second jump was higher than Michelle's first ones... Irina covered much bigger amount of ice as well. Michelle had only better flow. Here I would say draw or Irina's win but just by a small margin.

    Axel - Irina had more height, covered bigger amount of ice and this is the jump where she had very good flow as well, the same as Michelle's flow. Next thing, Irina put it right after the triple flip what made it more difficult. In their long programs they both didn't have any transitions but in the short Irina sometimes used difficult entrance (the same Midori Ito had sometimes used). Another win for Irina.

    Jumps go to Irina.

    Spins don't need any comments. Clearly Irina wins. She had more speed, more flexibility, better and more difficult positions. The only difficult position Michelle had is Y-spin but. Irina executed difficult variations in layback (catchfoot, biellman) and camel (donought) what showed her flexibility. And of course her signature biellman with foot change which also had sit, camel and standard layback positions. When CoP replaced 6.0 Irina didn't have any problems. Changing from sideways lean to backwards in layback, changing edges in camel, using difficult variations (catch-foot, biellman, donought). The only bad thing was that Irina overused a biellman positions but she had full right to make the most of the rules. On the other hand, Michelle had big problems with her easy spins.

    Spins go to Irina.

    Spirals - finally Michelle is better. Legendary change of edge arebesque spiral, deep edges, good flexibility though not outstanding, position held for a long time, quite nice speed as well. One problem, the only really good spiral of Michelle's is arebesque. The others aren't that good. Wait, she did only an arebesque. When CoP appeared Michelle had to include two different positions and they weren't as good as her arebesque. Under 6.0 Irina had bad spirals, rushed and not good positions, not the same stretch and extention as in her spins. Though, her edges in spirals were good, in one performance, I can't find it now, she did an arebesque spiral with one of the deepest outside edge I've ever seen. CoP showed that Irina could do the spirals. Biellman with change of edge, though the change was usually a bit shaky, good speed and flexibility. In terms of variety I've seen Michelle doing arebesqe, Y, fan and probably Kerrigan spirals. Irina did Biellman, arabesque and fan spirals.

    Spirals go to Michelle.

    Speed without a doubt goes to Irina.

    Moves in the field - Michelle sometimes did charlottes or spread eagles. I've never seen Irina doing them so this part go to Michelle.

    Transitions before the jumps I included in part about jumps.

    In my opinion, Irina is better than Michelle when it comes to technical side of skating. Irina - jumps, spins, speed. Michelle - spirals, moves in the field.

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