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  1. #41
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    I think from 96-99 though Michelle was better than Irina both technically and artistically which is why Michelle dominated her that whole period. From 2000 onwards Irina surpassed her technically while improving artistically which is why she more than held her own vs Kwan from that point on. Kwan was still often the stronger competitor in big events though (except Olympics).

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I think from 96-99 though Michelle was better than Irina both technically and artistically which is why Michelle dominated her that whole period. From 2000 onwards Irina surpassed her technically while improving artistically which is why she more than held her own vs Kwan from that point on. Kwan was still often the stronger competitor in big events though (except Olympics).
    Of course, in my big post I was comparing them in years 1999-2002.

  3. #43
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    On top of height and difficulty, if also considering set up, technique, line, form, flow in and out, landing position etc, Kwan's jumps were not necessarily worse than Slutskaya's. I mean look at Kwan's jumps from 2000 Worlds lp and 2004 Nationals lp, and 2003 in general.

    Spin-wise, Slutskaya had the better layback and flying camel, but flying sit goes to Kwan and IMO they are about even on combination spin when you take execution, centering, transition between positions and quality into account, not just difficulty.

  4. #44
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    Sure, Slutskaya was better than Kwan in certain areas, but Kwan had it all over her in the artistry department; Slutskaya's artistry, in general, was deplorable to me. I can think of very few programs of hers that I truly liked (her 2002 short with the straight-line footwork all done on one foot is one of the few), and her 2002 Olympic LP with the chicken-feeding movements passing as choreography was particularly hideous. Ditto her 2006 LP.

    I'm not one who can't stand that Sarah Hughes won the OGM because she really went for it in the LP whereas Michelle had such a subpar FS, but if Irina placing below Michelle in the LP would have given Michelle the gold, maybe Michelle should have won after all. IMO, Irina's artistry in the LP was virtually nil, and if I had it my way, none of her presentation marks would have been above a 5.0.

    Oh, and I disagree that Slutskaya was a better all-round spinner than Kwan - Slutskaya is only better if rather messily prostituting the Biellmann is a qualifying criterion.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Spirals - finally Michelle is better. Legendary change of edge arebesque spiral, deep edges, good flexibility though not outstanding, position held for a long time, quite nice speed as well. One problem, the only really good spiral of Michelle's is arebesque. The others aren't that good. Wait, she did only an arebesque. When CoP appeared Michelle had to include two different positions and they weren't as good as her arebesque. Under 6.0 Irina had bad spirals, rushed and not good positions, not the same stretch and extention as in her spins. Though, her edges in spirals were good, in one performance, I can't find it now, she did an arebesque spiral with one of the deepest outside edge I've ever seen. CoP showed that Irina could do the spirals. Biellman with change of edge, though the change was usually a bit shaky, good speed and flexibility. In terms of variety I've seen Michelle doing arebesqe, Y, fan and probably Kerrigan spirals. Irina did Biellman, arabesque and fan spirals.
    IIRC Kwan also did a hydrant position in her spiral-- something she added later to suit the COP requirements (2005 worlds I think?).

    Also, although Ira had bigger jumps, aesthetically speaking, I prefered Kwan. For example, landing them almost 90% of the time with a nice straight arch of the back, requires skill and technique, too.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Lutz - the most difficult jump and Irina's highest one. Way higher than Michelle (2x). Sometimes however she lost speed at the end while Michelle had usually better flow out of it. We must remember though it was not always like that. Many of Irina's lutzes had good flow. Both had similar transition before the lutz. Michelle flutzed, Irina took off from flat or slight outside edge so next point for her. Both used the jump in combination, Irina usually with double loop, Michelle usually with double toe. This season the difference is bigger, 1.4 for 2T and 1.8 for 2L. However, Irina tried the most difficult triple-triple (3Lz+3L) and landed it succesfully three times in her career. Michelle tried it once and in fact did 3Lz and 2.25L and fell. Irin wins lutz.
    Personally I think Irina telegraphed her jumps a lot more than Michelle which, coupled with Michelle's often superior flow and landing positions leaves the jumps about equal, for me, but these are all down to people's personal preferences and opinions.

    On the Lutz specifically the reason why I personally would give the nod to michelle - Irina did not start landing it consistently until she started using the new set up of mohawk, cross on in front. She usually set that up skating forwards for most of the length of the rink. Irina went through phases where she would not repeat the lutz doing only one in the LP. Then when she did repeat it, it came as the third jump in the programme with identical set up. Kwan always did two, the second lutz was always the penultimate jump and was always preceded by diagonal steps. At times she opened with the classic long BO edge and then used a different set up to the second one. That, to me, shows a great command of the lutz, it is very rare for skaters to be able to confortably interchange two entrances to the same triple jump.

    Ant

  7. #47

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    Double post

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Personally I think Irina telegraphed her jumps a lot more than Michelle which, coupled with Michelle's often superior flow and landing positions leaves the jumps about equal, for me, but these are all down to people's personal preferences and opinions.

    On the Lutz specifically the reason why I personally would give the nod to michelle - Irina did not start landing it consistently until she started using the new set up of mohawk, cross on in front. She usually set that up skating forwards for most of the length of the rink. Irina went through phases where she would not repeat the lutz doing only one in the LP. Then when she did repeat it, it came as the third jump in the programme with identical set up. Kwan always did two, the second lutz was always the penultimate jump and was always preceded by diagonal steps. At times she opened with the classic long BO edge and then used a different set up to the second one. That, to me, shows a great command of the lutz, it is very rare for skaters to be able to confortably interchange two entrances to the same triple jump.

    Ant
    Ok, that's right Irina stopped doing two lutzes in her late career but I was talking about their rivarly in 2000-2002. In her early years Irina had problems with lutz and I don't know if the reason was the entrance. I think that she was just worse skater before she came back strongly in fall of 1999. And I think that doing mohawk right before the jump make it more difficult actually, at least for me . And you know, that's brilliant Michelle did two lutzez with wonderful flow but there was thing that dispell it all, in fact she did flutzes, not lutzes, we don't know how her lutz would've looked if she hadn't switched to deep inside edge and she was not capable of fixing it. I forgot to put telegraph issue in my breakdown of their jumps, but Irina telegraphed only lutz and flip and still this didn't happend always. Soemtimes she was able not to telegraph and still did wonderfull super-height lutz or flip. And in case of Michelle lutz, it was always flutz. Irina took off from flat which is better and sometimes she had that slight outside edge, barely but still.

  9. #49
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    http://europeansforum.com - Europeans Community - Join us..
    Welcome everyone, this forum just opened, but we hope soon the whole europe of society itself will be accumulated here, in any case, we will do everything that is needed.

  10. #50
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    Just watched the original posted video. Interesting that Slute had severe ur problems on several 3-3s, but fixed them in time for CoP around 2005. Showed real dedication to the new system

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Ok, that's right Irina stopped doing two lutzes in her late career but I was talking about their rivarly in 2000-2002. In her early years Irina had problems with lutz and I don't know if the reason was the entrance. I think that she was just worse skater before she came back strongly in fall of 1999. And I think that doing mohawk right before the jump make it more difficult actually, at least for me . And you know, that's brilliant Michelle did two lutzez with wonderful flow but there was thing that dispell it all, in fact she did flutzes, not lutzes, we don't know how her lutz would've looked if she hadn't switched to deep inside edge and she was not capable of fixing it. I forgot to put telegraph issue in my breakdown of their jumps, but Irina telegraphed only lutz and flip and still this didn't happend always. Soemtimes she was able not to telegraph and still did wonderfull super-height lutz or flip. And in case of Michelle lutz, it was always flutz. Irina took off from flat which is better and sometimes she had that slight outside edge, barely but still.
    OK well if we're going by 2000-2002 Michelle then there was no flutz because that was cleaned up by 1998 Also did Irina ever land a 3Lz/3Lp in 2000-2002? Edit - looking at your video the answer is no Irina did not land that combination except at Russian nationals where the loop was under-rotated and the Lutz badly flutzed so I think the bonus Irina get for attempting the difficult combination has to be countered by the fact she didn't land a clean one in the period of comparison, and the fact the jump under scrutiny was flutzed.

    Ant
    Last edited by antmanb; 01-21-2011 at 03:56 PM.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    OK well if we're going by 2000-2002 Michelle then there was no flutz because that was cleaned up by 1998 Also did Irina ever land a 3Lz/3Lp in 2000-2002? Edit - looking at your video the answer is no Irina did not land that combination except at Russian nationals where the loop was under-rotated and the Lutz badly flutzed so I think the bonus Irina get for attempting the difficult combination has to be countered by the fact she didn't land a clean one in the period of comparison, and the fact the jump under scrutiny was flutzed.

    Ant
    Irina landed the combo at 2000 GPF with underrotated loop and then landed fully rotated 3S+3L. Lutz from Russian Nats 2001 was not "badly flutzed" since Irina never badly flutzed, she took it off from flat, she almost always did so (maybe sometimes just a slight outside edge). And the loop was from Russian Nats combo was underrotated but it would have got 70% value, it didn't cross 1/4 border that much. Michelle cleaned up her flutz by 1998? No way, look at her lutzes after 1998, all the time she flutzed. Everyone critisise Mao or Sasha for flutzing but when it comes to Michelle it's not that big problem...
    Last edited by bartek; 01-21-2011 at 08:33 PM.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Irina landed the combo at 2000 GPF with underrotated loop and then landed fully rotated 3S+3L. Lutz from Russian Nats 2001 was not "badly flutzed" since Irina never badly flutzed, she took it off from flat, she almost always did so (maybe sometimes just a slight outside edge). And the loop was from Russian Nats combo was underrotated but it would have got 70% value, it didn't cross 1/4 border that much. Michelle cleaned up her flutz by 1998? No way, look at her lutzes after 1998, all the time she flutzed. Everyone critisise Mao or Sasha for flutzing but when it comes to Michelle it's not that big problem...
    The GPF 2000 was not only servely under-rotated but didn't that also take place in 1999 - outsid eof your comparison window? You seem to have gone back and revised your dates for comparison and the criteria just so that you can say Irina was the best! That's fine if you think so, but when you have to go back and refine your statements again and again, change the criteria and the dates when they apply then you must know your on shaky ground.
    I also don't understand what the relevance of Irina landing a 3S+3Lp is to a discussion and comparison of a lutz? The Russian Nationals lutz was flutzed badly - it went off an inside edge - i watched your video of it!

    Ant

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    The GPF 2000 was not only servely under-rotated but didn't that also take place in 1999 - outsid eof your comparison window? You seem to have gone back and revised your dates for comparison and the criteria just so that you can say Irina was the best! That's fine if you think so, but when you have to go back and refine your statements again and again, change the criteria and the dates when they apply then you must know your on shaky ground.
    I also don't understand what the relevance of Irina landing a 3S+3Lp is to a discussion and comparison of a lutz? The Russian Nationals lutz was flutzed badly - it went off an inside edge - i watched your video of it!

    Ant
    You say that I revise my dates while you're the one who have wrong dates. GPF in season 1999-2000 took place in january of 2000. If you don't believe me look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999%E2..._Skating_Final As you can see your insults were wrong, I don't change criteria and refine my dates. In every post I referred to years 2000-2002 but we can very well take into consideration whole 1999-2000 season since this was the first season Irina was top medal contender (and it was like that for the whole season, not only since GPF), still it doeasn't matter, GPF took place in 2000. 3Lz+3L landed there was not that very underrotated, it would have probably got 70% value so underrotation mark instead of a downgrade. I think that severe underrotation occures when it's bigger than half a turn so for example Michelle attempt at that combo (2001 Skate Canada) was certainly severely underrotated, in fact it was almost a double loop. Watch my video again, and look again at the combo from Russian Nats 2001, this time carefully, than compare it with all the others lutzes of Irina's, you will notice (or not) that thay all took off from flat which is better than Michelle's flutzing. And Michelle never fixed her flutz as you said in earlier post. Look at, let's say 1997 Worlds, then 2001 Worlds and than 2004 Worlds.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Just watched the original posted video. Interesting that Slute had severe ur problems on several 3-3s, but fixed them in time for CoP around 2005. Showed real dedication to the new system
    She also did wonderful 3/3s (3toe3toe from Nagano Olympics) and (3sal3loop from 1997 Worlds) back when she was very sloppy.

    Her 2005 3/3s (Worlds, then GPs) were also wonderful ofcourse.

    Besides these 5 3/3s, her other 3/3s in between this period were either not fully rotated or just not very well done in general. She did pay more attention to other aspects of her skating and then nursing her illness during this period.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    You say that I revise my dates while you're the one who have wrong dates. GPF in season 1999-2000 took place in january of 2000. If you don't believe me look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999%E2..._Skating_Final As you can see your insults were wrong, I don't change criteria and refine my dates. In every post I referred to years 2000-2002 but we can very well take into consideration whole 1999-2000 season since this was the first season Irina was top medal contender (and it was like that for the whole season, not only since GPF), still it doeasn't matter, GPF took place in 2000. 3Lz+3L landed there was not that very underrotated, it would have probably got 70% value so underrotation mark instead of a downgrade. I think that severe underrotation occures when it's bigger than half a turn so for example Michelle attempt at that combo (2001 Skate Canada) was certainly severely underrotated, in fact it was almost a double loop. Watch my video again, and look again at the combo from Russian Nats 2001, this time carefully, than compare it with all the others lutzes of Irina's, you will notice (or not) that thay all took off from flat which is better than Michelle's flutzing. And Michelle never fixed her flutz as you said in earlier post. Look at, let's say 1997 Worlds, then 2001 Worlds and than 2004 Worlds.

    We'll have to agree to disagree, to my eye Irina definitely flutzed in the Russian nationals, and looking at their entire career not just the prescribed window you have enforced in this thread, Michelle had greater success with her jumps because of her solid technique, and for the reasons metioned earlier, despite Irina's greater height in many of the jumps, I think they are about equal in jumps with Irina winning some and Michelle winning others.

    Ant

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree, to my eye Irina definitely flutzed in the Russian nationals, and looking at their entire career not just the prescribed window you have enforced in this thread, Michelle had greater success with her jumps because of her solid technique, and for the reasons metioned earlier, despite Irina's greater height in many of the jumps, I think they are about equal in jumps with Irina winning some and Michelle winning others.

    Ant
    I did full breakdwon of their jumps and gave you reasons why all Irina's jumps are better. The only jump were they can be equal is toeloop. In case of lutz, flip, salchow, loop and axel Irina is just superior to Michelle. Michelle has wonderfull jumps, that's true, but I'm sorry, in this area of skating Irina is better. Even if we don't compare them in years 2000-2002, remember that, while Irina wasn't a gold medal contender before 1999, Michelle wasn't one after 2004.

  18. #58
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    It's hard to compare Michelle's and Irina's jumps, because Irina had gorgeous speed and height, on the other hand Michelle had beautiful landing position. I prefered to watch Michelle's jumps which were very soft and perfectly fit her programs, however I think Irina was a better jumper. She tried more difficult combinations and even though most of her 3-3 would be DG under CoP, her jumps were "bigger" than Michelle's

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    I did full breakdwon of their jumps and gave you reasons why all Irina's jumps are better. The only jump were they can be equal is toeloop. In case of lutz, flip, salchow, loop and axel Irina is just superior to Michelle. Michelle has wonderfull jumps, that's true, but I'm sorry, in this area of skating Irina is better. Even if we don't compare them in years 2000-2002, remember that, while Irina wasn't a gold medal contender before 1999, Michelle wasn't one after 2004.
    Yes you did, you gave your opinions which are not fact, you even used IMO irrelevant mentions (like i have said several times discussing salchows and loops in assessing a lutz) to make your conclusions. I disagree with them. That is why i said we'll have to agree to disagree neither is going to change the other's mind

    Ant

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Yes you did, you gave your opinions which are not fact, you even used IMO irrelevant mentions (like i have said several times discussing salchows and loops in assessing a lutz) to make your conclusions. I disagree with them. That is why i said we'll have to agree to disagree neither is going to change the other's mind

    Ant
    What exactly was not a fact? More height in Irina's jump? Or transitions before loops or lutzes? Or maybe more difficult triple-triples of Irina's?

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