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  1. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    It seems like Yu-Na is getting deeper and deeper entrenched in other things...

    It's really making me wonder if she'll have time, energy, motivation, etc. to continue to skate competitively. She has a large heap of duties on her plate with the Pyeongchang Olympics and Special Olympics, not to mention her UNICEF work and all of the other charities, shows and obligations she has. I'm feeling like the more she takes on, the less likely she is to compete. I wouldn't put it past her to attempt to do all of these things but at some point it will catch up to her. Then the question becomes what do you drop to make room for other things? Maybe she'll leave competitions alone for the next two years and then make a run at Soichi...but like I said, it seems like she's getting farther and farther away from competing.
    If she would want to concentrate on off-ice duties with likes of Unicef or Special Olympics, she should consider getting higher education. Being an active athlete, people will forgive her for things like someone writing speeches for her, since they take such activities as a symbolic gesture. However, becoming a full time ambassador and trying to take on a more responsive roll would be a different story.

    Take a look back at the Olympic bid Pyongchang went up against Munich. On the one hand, there was Yuna Kim, acting basically as a PR tool. It was good enough for her to take photos with journalists and give a brief speech that was prepared beforehand. On the other hand, Kati Witt had a major role, where she had to lots of organizing and management to do, and underwent numerous relationship building process aside from acting as the face of Munich. One can easily see that her role was much larger than that of Yuna, regardless of final outcome of the bid.

    I cannot imagine that Yuna Kim, who hasn't went to school since she was 14 years old or something, with very limited experience outside her sport, would be competent enough to take on serious roles such as Kati Witt did. I don't know what kind of educational background Kati has, but she has bundle of experience that could off-set any merits that a higher education diploma could bring.

    So if Yuna Kim wants to become a Witt or a Kwan, I would recommend her to go to college. With her credentials, I'm sure the best schools in the world would be more than willing to let her in. She would have to work on her English though. She can give short interviews in English just fine, but I am dubious whether she can read newspapers or write a short essay.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 08-19-2011 at 05:33 AM.

  2. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by VALuvsMKwan View Post
    Yes, I am seriously asking the question. YMMV.
    Then can you answer my question - what is the difference between the ubers/fanatics over there as opposed to the ubers/fanatics in the U.S. or in other countries? I'm really curious to read your answer because I think extreme elements exist in every country, no matter how much people argue to the contrary.

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    It seems like Yu-Na is getting deeper and deeper entrenched in other things...

    It's really making me wonder if she'll have time, energy, motivation, etc. to continue to skate competitively. She has a large heap of duties on her plate with the Pyeongchang Olympics and Special Olympics, not to mention her UNICEF work and all of the other charities, shows and obligations she has. I'm feeling like the more she takes on, the less likely she is to compete. I wouldn't put it past her to attempt to do all of these things but at some point it will catch up to her. Then the question becomes what do you drop to make room for other things? Maybe she'll leave competitions alone for the next two years and then make a run at Soichi...but like I said, it seems like she's getting farther and farther away from competing.
    If you are right, that would be really sad. I am not a big fan of Yuna. But I want her to keep skating in competitions. The more the merrier.
    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    Well, I would say that Koreans are kinda special in aspects of passion and enthusiasm they have for the people they "support".
    Not only this. How many elite Korean figure skaters did we have before Yuna? None, if I am not mistaken. She opened a new page. She deserves the support she gets at home.

    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    If she would want to concentrate on off-ice duties with likes of Unicef or Special Olympics, she should consider getting higher education.
    Some active athletes could do both: they took part in competitions + got higher education.

  4. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by VALuvsMKwan View Post
    Is the "cult of personality" so strong and fierce in South Korea that anyone sticking up out the crowd there (Yu-Na Kim, speed skaters, Rev. Moon - to name the examples best known in North America over the past few decades) attracts the kind of insane fandom and public (and now Internet) devotion and worship that these figures have attracted? Is it something intrinsic to Korean culture and identity?

    If I were Yu-Na, I would be terrified of this type of "fan" - which is after all, short for fanatic.

    What the.....
    If I were Kwan, I would be terrified of this type of "fan" - who is just like you.

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by crystalice View Post
    Some active athletes could do both: they took part in competitions + got higher education.
    It's rare they excel in school and succeed as a championship caliber athlete at the same time. Debbie Thomas comes to mind, but amateur athletes during her days didn't appear in shows like they do nowadays. Besides, even she took time off from school to prepare for the Olympics.

    Yuna Kim actually is a full time student at one of the most prestigious schools in Korea, at least on paper that is. But I seriously doubt that she is getting much education in reality.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 08-19-2011 at 07:06 AM.

  6. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by VALuvsMKwan View Post
    Is the "cult of personality" so strong and fierce in South Korea that anyone sticking up out the crowd there (Yu-Na Kim, speed skaters, Rev. Moon - to name the examples best known in North America over the past few decades) attracts the kind of insane fandom and public (and now Internet) devotion and worship that these figures have attracted? Is it something intrinsic to Korean culture and identity?
    Are the Germans so hostile to foreigners that they sometimes decide to gather them in a concentration camps and commit atrocities?

    Do the Japanese have so much trust in God-like power of their emperor that they have no idea of losing the war until moments before their emperor surrenders?

    Are all Americans so stupid that they believe home prices would rise forever and liar loans are credible means of purchasing one?

    I could go on and on.

  7. #527

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    10 Questions with Figure Skater Kim Yu-Na

    a new article from Time!
    http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...?xid=rss-world
    South Koreans call her Queen Yu-na. At just 20 years old this TIME 100 alum is a reigning Olympic champion, an ambassador for figure skating and a national hero.
    I love their introduction

  8. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    When characterizing a nation or a people, would it be fair after watching a series of WWF or UFC matches to assume American people are intrinsically violent?
    This statement, a bit ironic, no? I mean, coming from you--the king/queen of characterizing people?

  9. #529
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    I withdraw the question.

    I like Yu-Na the skater and the person (from what I have read about her) quite a lot.

    Her fanatics and anti-fanatics, not so much.

    I don't think that she's some sort of divine creature any more than I thought or think Michelle Kwan is.

    Enjoy the forum.
    "Skating fans are not a patient bunch." Dragonlady

  10. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by VALuvsMKwan View Post
    I withdraw the question.

    I like Yu-Na the skater and the person (from what I have read about her) quite a lot.

    Her fanatics and anti-fanatics, not so much.

    I don't think that she's some sort of divine creature any more than I thought or think Michelle Kwan is.
    You're "withdrawing" the question (which didn't have to do with Kim, but a whole ethnicity of people) because now you realize that it was based only on silly stereotypes. You're trying to divert attention from it by calling the people who questioned your post fanatics. I would definitely not call myself an uber of any skater, I'm just bemused by the odd ethnicity blanket statement/question you posed.

  11. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by VALuvsMKwan View Post
    I withdraw the question.

    I like Yu-Na the skater and the person (from what I have read about her) quite a lot.

    Her fanatics and anti-fanatics, not so much.

    I don't think that she's some sort of divine creature any more than I thought or think Michelle Kwan is.
    Enjoy the forum.
    I believe we all know better. Thank you.

  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponta1 View Post
    This statement, a bit ironic, no? I mean, coming from you--the king/queen of characterizing people?
    Isn't it clear in the context of my post the term “a people” means a large ethnic or national group, like when you say Irish people, Japanese people, Jewish people, American people, etc.? I don’t think I’ve ever done a blanket stereotyping characterization on any national or ethnic group in this forum.

    With that said, and being familiar with you , I see where you come from. There were instances where I made some undiluted remarks on some people from a certain fandom. But please understand, those were made in direct responses to the specific comments or behavior, or the collective agenda they had in making those comments, and never based on stereotypes/prejudices or anything like that.

  13. #533

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    It is time to Rumble ~~~ (cue WWF announcer voice :P)

    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    So everyone should shut up and praise Yuna in order to save the skating world?
    Absolutely not... it wouldn't be FSU otherwise. I am thrilled there are legitimate concerns for her competitive career from various stances - each with their own ulterior motives and passive aggression.

    So even though your post can be crassly worded, absurdly judgemental, ill considered and not exactly accurate - but I respect your opinions enough to respond with another long arse reply like this one

    As I have stated in my original post, it is my firm belief that heartfelt programs well presented to audience enhances popularity of skating and inspire kids to take up the sport. Actually, Yuna has done exactly this for a last few years with her competitive skating, resulting in massive public interest and something like 5 fold increase in number of entry level skaters.
    I think she is still trying to do that. Homage to Korea is certainly likely to be something personally important but also very risky.

    My personal opinion is that 'heart on a sleeve' type of programs tends to be very tricky when being applied to a competitive program. (Maybe that's why she insist it is more like a love letter to Korea and her fans.)

    With these type of programs, outside factors can often get convoluted to distort the work's original intention. There are just too many unpredictable implications and repercussions when being applied to a competitive environment as political and controversial as figure skating.

    To showcase anything so 'close to the heart' in public, whatever the circumstances, the performer risks get heartbroken if is not received or performed well. After all, it is more so than just the 'work'. And Yuna did not do well as she would have liked; she said so herself on numerous occasions with great regret.

    But what can you do? Ice is slippery, she was nervous that day, she messed up, life goes on. If all the greatest champions there ever was were able to do exactly what they want on any given day, it wouldn't be figure skating.

    I believe well thought out show skating could contribute to this phenomenon also. But the problem is that, at least in my opinion, Yuna's recent show was far from this.
    It is interesting you reached that conclusion, given this year's show appears to be most well received commercially. (My favourite show was IAS 2009, particularly the opening of 2nd opening act with the group number on Moonlight Sonata with the Erhu.)

    Although what is commercially successfully does not always equate to quality, but it does show the massive disparity of views between those who claims 'good taste' vs. the paying general public right now (which seems always spoken with such distain on this board - quite unfairly I might add. Some of the comments are darn right ignorant and insulting with whiffs of xenophobia.)

    Internet forums tends produce polarised views, and it is quite natural to find elitist views on a technical sport like figure skating, but it also cultivate worst sort of arrogance and bigotry.

    Time has moved on, she is no longer the same teenager, nor are the kids she had inspired.

    Her programs tends to be reflect upon particular essences according to her age, almost metaphoric in how how David find in his muse, and this year was FEVER. These shows have now been established as 2 hours extravaganzas designed to be experienced live, and it totally works in that context. Over analyse the artistic credibility of a show performance vs a competitive program from an isolated environment via a laptops seems hardly objective.

    I don't have problems with people feeling pride about their homeland, and Yuna's Arirang is actually my favorite program of hers. It is a beautiful program, and I really felt that she should use it as her Olympic season program.
    My main problem with Arirang was that during the course of turning it into a show program, the music cut became choppy, and overall impression of the program became contrived. It's such a shame that this program became ruined.
    The spirit of the Olympics is such that while it is the rival of sporting nations, but it is also about the athletes compete against themselves, taking ownership of everything they learnt including the philosophy of their sport with their only 1 real chance (or max 2 chances)in their career. As such, it is the ultimate test. Her Gershwin is a wonderfully nuanced and sophisticated liberated version of everything best about her skate and her presence on ice. Her Homage to Korea on the other hand imho has not been designed for optimised COP scoring compares to those of her rivals. Part of this is due to the rules changes, part of it is because the objective has changed.

    It might be important to note the quality of the program/performance and the authenticity of the program are always impacted by
    1) The context they are performing
    2) Where they are performing
    3) Why they are performing
    4) The quality and the condition of the observers including judges and the audience.
    5) Outside pressures and factors

    Even the best of actors wouldn't able to perform Macbeth convincingly without the intimate setting of a dark quiet respectable theatre.

    'But this is a sport!' I hear you say. But is it really JUST a sport when a program is not designed just for sport?

    Artistic credible work like Homage suffered, because the best way to show case this type of intimate, personal and beautiful work is likely to be without crowds, in a dark rink with just the spotlight, the music and her own sobriety (I will probably choose a different edit of the music, particular the last 30 seconds, they cut away too much of the main theme of Arirang which is such an important identity to the Koreans. I would probably prefer Yuna do two continuous longer spirals as well, each at least 4 beat longer, the sweeping music just screams glorious spirals. The shorter version cram too much content in, unlike her Gershwin where Yuna were allowed to express and riff the subtle nuances instead of doing so much catching up. )

    To respond to this, I'll have to define what a groupie is. A groupie, IMO, is someone who admires an idol, in this case Yuna Kim, so much that they emotionally connect themselves with every aspect of her.
    In this sense, I'm not a groupie since I rarely connect with Yuna Kim the person unless she performs good enough to really draw me in. Let me make myself clear. Although I'm a huge fan of her skating and want her to do well, but I don't find myself spiritually connected with Yuna the individual. That is why I can take the liberty to criticize her for disappointing showings.
    Heh... it is natural wanting to appear fair and square/objective. As hinted in my previous post, I can see why your opinion is such as it is. About the groupie thing, I was only teasing. Groupies has always had such a bad reputation and spoke with such distain on this board, but seriously, we are all fans of one thing or another on this forum, and the accusation of other fans being the worst are rather hypocritical. Fanaticism in general - any form of is bad without some objectivity, yet it is also what enrich and nourish the sport and make it an integral, fun and worthwhile part of the sport.

    Fever has to be one of the tackiest programs I have ever seen.
    Disagree.

    There are plenty of skaters who were sensual without slightest bit of tackiness. IMO, Lu Chen and Maria Butylskaya were such skaters. Sensuality of a mature women inspire young girls to wanting to become like them, but trying to be sexy turning to tackiness make people cringe and parents not wanting their kids to watch skating anymore. Where does Yuna's Fever belong? You be the judge.
    That is your opinion. Personally I have not often came across many people wanting to be like Lu Chen and Maria Butylskaya because of their 'sensuality' to take up skating .

    There are many today's young skaters (incl. Chinese skaters) today wanting to be like Yuna, and no disrespect but their opinion on FEVER would outweigh any one of the stuffy old generation who believe FEVER is tacky because it dares to do something different from the usual competitive programs. It is 'show skating' and the topic is FEVER, if it is not sexy then David/Yuna has clearly not done their job.

    I know you are disappointed with Yuna's recent work, but your lash out are also appears out of touch with reality. Even in a conservative sport like figure skating, I have yet to find one single parent to complain about FEVER and not wanting their kids to watch skating anymore because of just one program. Like it or not, sexiness is a part of womanhood, and 'should' be part of performance art.

    Controversially, sexiness has always means different things to different people from different generations, and times has moved on.
    Last edited by os168; 08-20-2011 at 11:53 AM.

  14. #534
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    Oy Boy, here we go again.

    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    So even though your post can be crassly worded, absurdly judgemental, ill considered and not exactly accurate - but I respect your opinions enough to respond with another long arse reply like this one
    In other words, you don't hate me though you think I'm a prick, right?

    I think she is still trying to do that. Homage to Korea is certainly likely to be something personally important but also very risky.

    My personal opinion is that 'heart on a sleeve' type of programs tends to be very tricky when being applied to a competitive program. (Maybe that's why she insist it is more like a love letter to Korea and her fans.)

    To showcase anything so 'close to the heart' in public, whatever the circumstances, the performer risks get heartbroken if is not received or performed well. After all, it is more so than just the 'work'. And Yuna did not do well as she would have liked; she said so herself on numerous occasions with great regret.
    I want to remind you that I only have nice things to say to her competitive program of Arirang. Even with mistakes, that program should have won. And knowing all the difficulties leading up to Worlds, I have never criticized her for making mistakes. I beg to differ from your opinions that Arirang the program itself was a bad choice and she made mistakes because of it.

    It is interesting you reached that conclusion, given this year's show appears to be most well received commercially.
    Oh, I've never questioned commercial success of the show. I'm sure they raked in tons of money. As a businessman, I can assure you that from a strictly financial point of view, having her do sexy posing and plead to nationalism in conjunction with her TV-show was a perfect way to milk every penny off her fame and popularity. It's like saying "Come to the show, watch me on TV, and buy my sponsor's products if you really love your country, and think I'm pretty.
    Go ahead, why not?

    Although what is commercially successfully does not always equate to quality, but it does show the massive disparity of views between those who claims 'good taste' vs. the paying general public right now.
    Thank god you are aware of first part of statement. As for your second part, how can you be so sure that general public wouldn't have come to the show as much as they did had she not done what she did?

    In addition, have you thought about what the general public might think, say 10 years later looking back at her posings?
    Then again, since we are talking money here, who cares, right?

    Her programs tends to be reflect upon particular essences according to her age, almost metaphoric in how how David find in his muse, and this year was FEVER. These shows have now been established as 2 hours extravaganzas designed to be experienced live, and it totally works in that context. Over analyse the artistic credibility of a show performance vs a competitive program from an isolated environment via a laptops seems hardly objective.
    No matter how hard you try to deny it, I'll never change my mind about Fever being a crappy routine. It just isn't skating. I have said this before, and I'll say it again. If I had pay to 100 dollars to see a girl do sexy poses, I would go to one of the night joints and ask for a private dance rather than go to an ice show. I'm not saying this to provoke anyone, but to express my honest opinion.
    BTW, I'm not into skinny girls that much.

    Now, I'm not going to deny of being a purist (as far as skating is concerned lol), and prefer to see what they can to with their skates, i.e. usual wonderful stuff like edges, speed, control, and carriage. If other people are happy watching Fever, so be it, but I'll remain to be critical.

    Her Gershwin is a wonderfully nuanced and sophisticated liberated version of everything best about her skate and her presence on ice. Her Homage to Korea on the other hand imho has not been designed for optimised sporting performance compares to those of her rivals.
    You and I have so much difference in views.

    IMO, with Gershwin, she and her team concentrated on showing off intricate transitions and her skating skills while cutting down on drama. Sure, there were some nice nuances, but it was basically a technical skate, albeit a very good one. It wasn't designed to make audiences say wow and jump to their feet even before the music had ended, but have them marvel at her technical mastery. It was a nice choice for the Olympics, where winning counts the most, and tailored correctly to IJS, which awards transitions and skating skills more than emotion and drama.

    As for Arirang, I don't see how she intentionally watered down the technical content. Regardless of motives, the ISU put in place number of rules following the Olys season that limited her from putting maximum amount of difficulties to her program. She weren't allowed to do her signature moves like 2A-3T out of a bauer or an eagle and inverted camel spin. This was the real reason that held down her technical content, not the nature of the program.

    I do acknowledge that, she made a mistake by selling patriotism, nationalism, or her love for her country or whatever you want to call it, too much even before she competed at the Worlds. She could have chosen to call it the Arirang instead of Homage to Korea and just say that she is choosing to skate to Korean music, and it would have been received just fine by the international skating community. In other words, it was a folly to sell nationalism while competing in an international stage.

    Artistic credible work like Homage suffered, because the best way to show case this type of intimate, personal and beautiful work is likely to be without crowds, in a dark rink with just the spotlight and music.
    I don't know how to respond to this. It's maybe because I'm no artist, but it doesn't make sense to me that a skating routine should be created and not shown to anybody.

    (I will probably choose a different edit of the music, particular the last 30 seconds, they cut away too much of the main theme of Arirang which is such an important identity to the Koreans. I would probably prefer Yuna do two continuous longer spirals as well, each at least 4 beat longer, the sweeping music just screams glorious spirals. The shorter version cram too much content in, unlike her Gershwin where Yuna were allowed to express and riff the subtle nuances instead of doing so much catching up. )
    So you at least agree that the music cut was choppy and program was hurried.

    Heh... it is natural wanting to appear fair and square/objective. As hinted in my previous post, I can see why your opinion is such as it is. About the groupie thing, I was only teasing. Groupies has always had such a bad reputation and spoke with such distain on this board, but seriously, we are all fans of one thing or another on this forum, and the accusation of other fans being the worst are rather hypocritical. Fanaticism in general - any form of is bad without some objectivity, yet it is also what enrich and nourish the sport and make it an integral, fun and worthwhile part of the sport.
    I decided to criticize since I'm a fan of her skating and want to see more great skating from her in the future, i.e. out of my selfishness. If I were a fan of the individual, I would have been happy with all the money and fame, and would have kept my mouth shut despite mediocre skating to say the least. I wouldn't object to anything that goes on her life off the ice, but I'm basically indifferent to them at the end of the day.

    It's really similar to my former fandom for Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods. Watching them inspired me but I really didn't care about them turning into a minor league baseball player or having crazy sex adventures.... Well, I admit that I feel a tad more connection with Yuna but it could only be due to nature of figure skating, you know, the music and expressions and all that cheesy stuff.

    Personally I have not often came across many people wanting to be like Lu Chen and Maria Butylskaya because of their 'sensuality' to take up skating .
    You not having met one doesn't mean there weren't. Besides, I didn't exactly say Chen or Butylskaya's sensuality inspired many girls. I said they were capable of being sensual with their body lines and nuances, and without excessive sexy posing.

    There are many today's young skaters (incl. Chinese skaters) today wanting to be like Yuna, and no disrespect but their opinion on FEVER would outweigh any one of the stuffy old generation who believe FEVER is tacky because it dares to do something different from the usual competitive programs. It is 'show skating' and the topic is FEVER, if it is not sexy then David/Yuna has clearly not done their job.
    IMO, Fever is a program designed for her to pose in front of cameras. Young skaters might be fond of all the attention that she gets, but I'm sure even kids would agree that it lacks substance as a skating program.

    I know you are disappointed with Yuna's recent work, but your lash out are also appears out of touch with reality. Even in a conservative sport like figure skating, I have yet to find one single parent to complain about FEVER and not wanting their kids to watch skating anymore because of just one program.
    I wonder how many parents you asked if they would want their kids watching all the sexy posings. Frankly, I wouldn't make kids stop watching, but I wouldn't recommend it.

    Like it or not, sexiness is a part of womanhood, and 'should' be part of performance art.
    Don't get me wrong. I'm totally into stuff like womenhood and sexiness.
    Actually, I'm always keen on being a part of it as many times as I can.

    Controversially, sexiness has always means different things to different people from different generations, and times has moved on.
    But the thing is, I don't look to skating as a major source of sexiness, I'm afraid. I don't mind sensual programs in general, but without real substance in terms of skating per se, I can't help but to think I am wasting my time.

    It ultimately depends on who you are and what your taste is, but unfortunately I only can speak for myself.

    I regret that I had so much harsh things to say to Yuna but I am not going to take any of them back, since I was being honest to my observations and thought that it was a finally the right time to state my criticisms.

    She is on an important juncture of her career and I do wish she makes correct decisions.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 08-20-2011 at 02:57 PM.

  15. #535

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    Revised
    Her Homage to Korea on the other hand imho has not been designed for optimised COP scoring compares to those of her rivals. Part of this is due to the rules changes, part of it is because the objective has changed.
    (Sorry I revised my statement before you got to read it. What i meant to say is the COP scoring content not the technical content. Her technical content has always been amongst the highest including 2011. So i agree with you in that respect)

    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post

    You and I have so much difference in views.

    IMO, with Gershwin, she and her team concentrated on showing off intricate transitions and her skating skills while cutting down on drama. Sure, there were some nice nuances, but it was basically a technical skate, albeit a very good one.

    As for Arirang, I don't see how she intentionally watered down the technical content. Regardless of motives, the ISU put in place number of rules following the Olys season that limited her from putting maximum amount of difficulties to her program. This was the real reason that inhibited her technical content, not the nature of program.
    I agree with the latter part - see previous revised statement. I think it is important to make correction, the program is called Homage to Korea and not Arirang. The program contains interwove many chapters/themes within Korea history/culture to be highlighted, and it is a heck of a lot to be included in one program.

    I do acknowledge that, she made a mistake by selling patriotism, nationalism, or her love for her country or whatever you want to call it, too much even before she competed at the Worlds. She could have chosen to call it a Arirang instead of Homage to Korea and just say that she is choosing to skate to Korean music, and it would have been received just fine by the international skating community. In other words, it was a folly to sell nationalism while competing in an international stage.
    Then you were biased against the program in the first place. Contradiction much? Case point my explanation of the 'heart on the sleeve' danger, unpredictable implications and repercussions.

    Although I think team Yuna is perfectly aware of it but decide to risk it anyway because her program's objective was to pay tribute to those matter to her rather than win another medal. At the same time - in 'theory' I think the job of the artist/performer is to express what is genuine, important and real to oneself for their defined purpose, the rest they shouldn't worry about, because it is out side their control anyway.

    And actually regardless of patriotism, she is a superior skater who just had a bad day. She still would have won if she made less mistakes. It is a program capable of winning the championship, even though it was also designed for something else instead.

    I don't know how to react this because I'm not an artist, but it doesn't make sense to me that a skating routine should be created and not shown to anybody.
    They could film it and present it like a performance art show reel. In anycase, that is where the contradiction between performance art, for art vs sport. People who love her for her sport like yourself will have different opinion on people who love her for her art

    I decided to criticize since I'm a fan of her skating and want to see more in the future. If I were a fan of the individual, I would have been happy with all the money and fame, and would have kept my mouth shut despite mediocre skating to say the least. I wouldn't object to anything that goes on her life off the ice, but I'm basically indifferent to them at the end of the day.
    We will all like to see more in the future, but how much is it realistic and is it right to have expectations?


    Sorry to say this but it's only your opinion. IMO, Fever is a program designed for her to pose in front of cameras. Young skaters might be fond of all the attention that she gets, but I'm sure even kids would agree that it lacks substance as a skating program.
    But then it is fine to like something that 'lack in substance' once in a while, have fun, let your hair down. It is called experimenting and have fun. She is young and she should be freely to express that.


    You are attempting to distort what I said in order to make your argument. I just said negative things about tackiness and how I find Fever to be a tacky program.
    You can continue to call the program tacky, just as I can continue to call your accusation plainly wrong ;P

    When is the last time you went to see a Beyonce concert, or Lady gaga show?
    Why have double standards for figure skaters who's trying to put up an entertaining show?

    BTW I forgot to say, one of the possible reason she decide to FEVER was because her biggest fan group in Korea is called FEVERS, so that performance is likely to be fan service to them. And when you look it like that, it does make sense doesn't it?

    BTW, I wonder how many parents you asked if they would want their kids watching all the sexy posings.
    Oh please... as if parents really have any say if Kids really want to act dress up and have fun! Kids are kids, being a guy, clearly you never played dressing up. Or may be had bad experience. And likewise, how many parents have you spoken to who decide to pull their kids out of skating because of FEVER?

    Don't get me wrong. I'm totally into stuff like womenhood and sexiness.
    Actually, I'm always keen on being a part of it as many times as I can.
    I am happy you are able to replay all your Lu and Maria clips everyday then. Whatever makes you happy


    But the thing is, I don't look to skating as a main source of sexiness I'm afraid. I don't mind sensual programs in general, but without real substance in terms of skating per se, I can't help but to think what I am doing wasting my time.
    Sorry to waste your time, and i can't believe I am defending Yuna's FEVERS to a guy! on FSU (of sustance...apparently )

    It ultimately depends on who you are and what your taste is, but I only can speak for myself.
    I would 100% agree with you on that
    Last edited by os168; 08-20-2011 at 12:04 PM.

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    Gees, You can write faster than I can read.
    I also made a bunch of revision so you may choose to take a look, but it won't be neccessary since I only did some softening up and there really isn't changes to my stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    I think it is important to make correction, the program is called Homage to Korea and not Arirang. The program contains interwove many chapters/themes within Korea history/culture to be highlighted, and it is a heck of a lot to be included in one program.
    I know all the stories. But I like to call it the Arirang for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it is shorter and easier to remember. Secondly, it sounds more cosmopolitan, hence less likely to be constrained and open for everyone, including people who don't know too much about Korea, to enjoy this wonderful program.

    Then you were biased against the program in the first place. Contradiction much? Case point my explanation of the 'heart on the sleeve' danger, unpredictable implications and repercussions.

    Although I think team Yuna is perfectly aware of it but decide to risk it anyway because her program's objective was to pay tribute to those matter to her rather than win another medal. At the same time - in 'theory' I think the job of the artist/performer is to express what is genuine, important and real to oneself for their defined purpose, the rest they shouldn't worry about, because it is out side their control anyway.
    There is a fine line of difference between expressing love for homeland and having nationalistic bias, so this problem isn't just confined to Yuna's skating program IMO but should be viewed as what each individual defines two different but closely related matters.

    Let me share my thoughts on love for homeland / nationalism. I think it's perfectly natural for someone to have affection for her or his homeland. For Yuna Kim, this could have had a special meaning, since she has been representing her's for such a long time.

    While it is fine to be conscience of where you come from, it is also important to be aware of how nationalism has been abused throughout history of mankind to divide people, and served as means of control by totalitarianisms. We really don't have to go all the way back to Nazis to realize this. Just looking around, I see so many people abusing and trying to benefit from spreading such we against you mentality. To make it short, love for homeland itself is fine, but if it gets used as a tool to push a political / financial agenda, it could get problematic more often than not.

    I hope this is enough to explain my stance regarding "Homage to Korea" program. It is beautiful, but could have been presented more shrewdly as a competitive program without taking needless risks. Watching it being performed in a show, with choppy music cut and rushed through moves, turned me off, as it felt as if she was being dragged on to push nationalism in order to benefit her corporate sponsor and TV station.

    To put it simply, it was like going through tortures of watching lousy sequels of great movies.

    And actually regardless of patriotism, she is a superior skater who just had a bad day. She still would have won if she made less mistakes. It is a program capable of winning the championship, even though it was also designed for something else instead.
    Her supposedly bad day was good enough for me.

    They could film it and present it like a performance art show reel. In anycase, that is where the contradiction between performance art, for art vs sport. People who love her for her sport like yourself will have different opinion on people who love her for her art
    I think it's interesting how we are engaging in a discussion each with a completely different perspective, you as an artist, and me in the eyes of a sportsman / a political scientist. No wonder this discussion is going no where.

    We will all like to see more in the future, but how much is it realistic and is it right to have expectations?
    I have no doubts that she will continue to skate as either an eligible competitor or a show skater. For me, either is fine, as long as she is comfortable in whatever she is doing. The thing that frustrated me the most about her recent show was that, at least in my view, she seemed unsure of what she was doing out there.

    If she leaves skating for good? I will miss her skating, but it will be fine as long as she does well in whatever she does. Everyone comes around and goes around. It's life.

    But then it is fine to like something that 'lack in substance' once in a while, have fun, let your hair down. It is called experimenting and have fun. She is young and she should be freely to express that.
    You are absolutely right. She should have fun once in a while, but I wish she could send a warning sign to keep a stubborn purist like me from watching it. Maybe I should run away when I see her with hair down next time.

    You can continue to call the program tacky, just as I can continue to call your accusation plainly wrong ;P

    When is the last time you went to see a Beyonce concert, or Lady gaga show?
    Why have double standards for figure skaters who's trying to put up an entertaining show?
    Sorry but I haven't been to concerts of those artists. I only get to listen to their music only every once in a while when I go out on weekends.
    At home, I mainly listen to jazz or classic, and rarely enjoy electronic sounds.
    Does this answer your question?

    BTW I forgot to say, one of the possible reason she decide to FEVER was because her biggest fan group in Korea is called FEVERS, so that performance is likely to be fan service to them. And when you look it like that, it does make sense doesn't it?
    It makes fricken lot of sense!!!
    I wish she had told us beforehand.

    Oh please... as if parents really have any say if Kids really want to act dress up and have fun! Kids are kids, being a guy, clearly you never played dressing up. Or may be had bad experience. And likewise, how many parents have you spoken to who decide to pull their kids out of skating because of FEVER?
    I never played dressing up, but enjoyed playing doctors.
    I wouldn't want my daughters skating to fever as much as I don't want them playing doctors.
    Thank goodness I don't have kids.

    I am happy you are able to replay all your Lu and Maria clips everyday then. Whatever makes you happy
    I don't have to play Maria clips because her skating to Otonal for something like 20 consecutive years have her engraved in my memory. I do like to watch Chen Lu every now and then though. Her rendition of the Last Emperor Soundtrack and Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto was so beautiful.

    Sorry to waste your time, and i can't believe I am defending Yuna's FEVERS to a guy! on FSU (of sustance...apparently )
    Don't guys come in all different shapes and sizes?
    Sorry about wasting my time remark... I didn't mean it.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 08-20-2011 at 03:47 PM.

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    As OS said, I respect her team’s effort in trying something new each time, all age appropriate so far, I think. Meantime, I agree with RF her Fever wasn’t a memorable SKATING program. Among her light, casual show programs, I liked her Bulletproof better than Fever or Don’t Stop the Music. Sensuality concerned, to me her Bond was more sensual than Fever. Further, I actually find her Gershwin even more so, in a subtle way.

    I love her Meditation de Thais and it’s one of my biggest favorites of all time (among her other programs my list includes her Miss Saigon, Lark Ascending, Danse Macabre, and her 2005 JW LP and Ben). Doing more exhibition programs of that caliber and setting the tone as the host with substantial skating would IMO only enhance the quality and long-term viability of her show, which is already a phenomenal success.
    Last edited by lowtherlore; 08-20-2011 at 03:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    As OS said, I respect her team’s effort in trying something new each time, all age appropriate so far, I think. Meantime, I agree with RF her Fever wasn’t a memorable SKATING program. Among her light, casual show programs, I liked her Bulletproof better than Fever or Don’t Stop the Music. Sensuality concerned, to me her Bond was more sensual than Fever. Further, I actually find her Gershwin even more so, in a subtle way.

    I love her Meditation de Thais and it’s one of my biggest favorites of all time (among her other programs my list includes her Miss Saigon, Lark Ascending, Danse Macabre, and her 2005 JW LP and Ben). Doing more exhibition programs of that caliber and setting the tone as the host with substantial skating would IMO only enhance the quality and long-term viability of her show, which is already a phenomenal success.
    Well said lowtherlore.

    I was critical of Yuna's recent exhibitions because I have full faith in her abilities to do better in terms of both program construction and actual performance.

    This is the girl who choreographed her own exhibition as a junior competitor. Actually, I think her Ben program was the best exhibition program she ever did. Although she was very young, she showed shades of future greatness, such as great speed over the ice, nice musical interpretation, well-timed jumps etc. It showed her talent so clearly.

    It could be due to just a nostalgia that I still like it the best, but I am quite sure that exhibition program since Ben, hasn't progressed as much as her competitive programs have over the years.

    If we choose to look at positive sides to all this, we can say that, even as excellent as she is, have room to be even better.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 08-20-2011 at 03:49 PM.

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    Same here, it could be nostalgia. When I first saw her Ben, and the subtle flip of the wrist at the end of the long ina bauer and the little tilt of her head going into the final spin, her exceptional connection with the music was so immediately apparent. For a fan like me, it’s a blessing to know she intends to skate on, in competition or in shows, so I could look forward to more great programs still to come from her, at least once in a while, conservatively speaking.

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    wow full-page discussion going on I think it's great when you discuss things even though you can't come to a mutual agreement.

    By the by, did you guys hear that EWC's tickets sales went frozen due to the high demand?! I mean, the Queen naturally brings the crowd with her wherever she goes!

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