COP/Patrick Chan Questions

[wingnut]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this.

Just a couple questions regarding the scoring of certain elements under the COP and how they apply to Patrick Chan this season.

1) In the SP, are men still required to do footwork entering their solo jump element? I ask because I've noticed Chan seems to decide on the the ice whether to do the quad as a combination or to do his 3 flip as a combo based on how secure his landing is on the quad. So would he have to do footwork into his opening quad just in case he doesn't get the combination off?

2) How are "half loop" combinations scored? Do they count as the 1 allowed 3-jump combo? (ex. Plushenko's 3axel-half loop-3 Flip). It appears that Chan is planning a 3lutz-half loop-3 salchow in his free skate this year and hasn't done a 3-jump combo. Just wondering if that is related to the new combo or just that he hasn't had the speed/landing to throw an additional double jump on the end of his axel or flip combo.

Thanks for the insight!

[alilou]

1) Often if a skater misses the second jump of a combo they add it on to their solo jump, and yes it means that their "solo" jump (ie the one that was intended to be in combo) was not preceded by footwork. It seems the judges tend to ignore this, and it's not only Patrick that does it. I've seen it several times in competition over the past few years, but please don't ask me to name examples. Maybe someone has a better memory than me and can give some examples.

2) the half loop is being counted as a single loop in a 3 jump combo now (new rule this season)

ETA: Also Patrick does do some footwork into the quad. I'm not in teknik enough to know if it's enough footwork, or if it's close enough to the jump, but he certainly does more that fly down the length of the ice doing cross-overs as most skaters do when setting up the quad.

[BigB08822]

Yes, many athletes turn their planned combo into the solo jump and it is not entered with footwork. The judges should take this into consideration but I would say overwhelmingly they do not. It wouldn't be a huge issue if it weren't a required element. I think if it isn't entered with footwork then it is no longer an element that is counted but I am really strict when it comes to the short program. I say give them a 0 on the element but at the very least I think it should be an automatic -3 I am not sure what the rules actually say but it is probably something like -1 or -2 off the base and if the jump is really well done then it is still possible to get +GOE overall.

[wingnut]

Cool, thanks for the responses. I've also seen that before where skaters change their solo jump into a combo later in the program and always wondered how that would affect the scoring. I figured it didn't really matter most of the time if the skater falls on the planned combo because it would seem excessive to take even more points away from an element when they've already fallen on it. I'd agree that they should be stricter about the footwork rule though as it's been a rule for as long as I've followed skating, but I do notice now that Patrick does some simple footwork going into the quad so I guess that would count either way? Would that mean that a skater could do footwork into all of their jump elements if they chose to?

Interesting about the 1/2 loop combo. Seems the risk would outweigh the reward though most of the time. Wouldn't the rate of success be higher doing the triples separately and adding a 2 loop to the end of a combo? But I guess just mathematically it's smarter as he's (potentially) scoring a 2axel and a 1 loop in the place of a 2 loop. Guess it's like doing a quad- worth the extra points if you're confident you can pull it off.

[gkelly]

I think if it isn't entered with footwork then it is no longer an element that is counted but I am really strict when it comes to the short program. I say give them a 0 on the element but at the very least I think it should be an automatic -3 I am not sure what the rules actually say but it is probably something like -1 or -2 off the base and if the jump is really well done then it is still possible to get +GOE overall.

Well, why not check what the rules say?
-3 reduction (from whatever the value of the jump would have been otherwise) for "No required steps/movement preceding jump" and -1 to -2 reduction for "Break between required steps/movements & jump/only one step/movement preceding jump"

Even if there were no steps at all, just crossovers, square off, turn, jump, best case scenario it's a beautiful jump: +2, reduced by -3 for lack of preceding steps, final GOE -1

If there were good steps, pause of one or two seconds, good jump, then best case would be +2/-1 = +1

(Not likely the quality of the jump would merit +3 if there was a pause or obvious setup)

If the jump is not that good or has other things wrong with it, then the final GOE would be lower.

If it was planned as the combination and the skater chose not to put the second jump on the end, chances are there was some problem with it and the GOE would be 0 or negative even before the reduction for the lack of preceding steps.

most of the time if the skater falls on the planned combo because it would seem excessive to take even more points away from an element when they've already fallen on it.

Yeah. If the jump is going to get -3 already because of a fall, then the lack of steps won't make any further difference in the GOE, it's already at the lowest possible. So the skater won't lose any more for that element by pretending it was planned as the solo jump and turning the planned solo into a combination. If they can pull off the combo well, they get full credit for the second jump and maybe some positive GOE for the preceding steps, which are not required on the SP combo. If they can't pull it off successfully, they may lose more (in GOE, and possibly downgrade and/or fall deduction) than the value of the second jump. So it's a risky strategy for some skaters, wise plan B for others.

Juniors can't do this because their solo jump is a designated takeoff each year.

Would that mean that a skater could do footwork into all of their jump elements if they chose to?

Absolutely.

[Japanfan]

In the SP, are men still required to do footwork entering their solo jump element?

So even if footwork is required into the solo jump, a skater can change the solo to a double and then do a solo without preceding footwork, and receive no penalty?

And in the LP a solo can't be turned into a double because even missed combos are counted as combos, right?

[nlyoung]

So even if footwork is required into the solo jump, a skater can change the solo to a double and then do a solo without preceding footwork, and receive no penalty?

And in the LP a solo can't be turned into a double because even missed combos are counted as combos, right?

Only if it is the second jump of that type, in which case it has to be counted as a combo/sequence.

[gkelly]

So even if footwork is required into the solo jump, a skater can change the solo to a double and then do a solo without preceding footwork, and receive no penalty?

By "double" in this context, you mean combination?

Yes, the skater can change the planned solo jump to a combination and get full credit for the combination, maybe extra GOE on account of the preceding footwork.

If the planned combination becomes the solo jump as a result, then the penalty for having no steps or other movements should be -3 off whatever the jump would have gotten otherwise.

The maximum penalty is -3 (plus fall deduction if applicable).

So if the reason the skater didn't do the second jump of the planned combination is because s/he fell on the first jump, then the penalty is already GOE of -3 and fall deduction; there's no additional penalty for not doing preceding steps because the element already receives the maximum penalty.

If the reason the skater didn't do the second jump was that the jump was slightly to moderately flawed in some other way and deserved 0 to -2 on own merits, then the final GOE after penalizing the lack of preceding steps will end up as -3.

If the jump was quite good and deserved positive GOE on its own merits and the skater just left off the combination because of mental lapse or worry about being too close to the boards, then after subtracting the -3 penalty for lack of connecting steps the final GOE will be -1 or -2.

[Aussie Willy]

I definately deduct for no steps into the solo jump and even a good jump can end up in the -GOE if they haven't done the steps. With the steps you want to see a rythmn from the steps into the jump with no real break between the steps and the jump.

With the steps themselves, you are looking at quality. So it doesn't matter how difficult the steps are, as long as there is no break between the steps and jump and they are done well. However you could consider the difficulty of the steps in the transition component.

[Mathman]

...So it doesn't matter how difficult the steps are, as long as there is no break between the steps and jump and they are done well.

Do you find that most skaters are able to accomplish that, or do quite a few just do some steps and turns, then set up independently for the jump?

[Aussie Willy]

Do you find that most skaters are able to accomplish that, or do quite a few just do some steps and turns, then set up independently for the jump?

Not many do accomplish it. But you also have to understand the difficulty of the element and the level of the skater and give some consideration to that as well. If they don't attempt any steps at all then that really needs to be reflected in the GOE.

I think one of the best examples I recall from an FSU judging game of doing the steps into jump is Tim Goebel's SP from 2002 Olympics and his steps into his 3flip. That is how it should be done. Absolutely no hesitation.

[Dragonlady]

So even if footwork is required into the solo jump, a skater can change the solo to a double and then do a solo without preceding footwork, and receive no penalty?

And in the LP a solo can't be turned into a double because even missed combos are counted as combos, right?

If by “double” you mean combo, if the skater misses the combo in the SP, the “Plan B” approach is to do add a second jump (combo) on what would have been the triple jumps out of steps. This doesn’t absolve the skater from doing steps into the solo triple though, although if the skater falls, they’re still going to get -3 for the element which is the same as not doing the footwork into it. Most of the top level skaters have steps into both triple jump passes in the SP in any case, to allow for this switch, if necessary.

The judges only add +SEQ if the missed combo starts with a duplicate triple i.e. on the second 3Z attempt, the skater botches the landing and can’t get the second jump in. So if the first jump of the combo is, for example a 3S and the skater hasn’t already done one 3S, then no, this jump wouldn’t be counted as a +SEQ.

[gkelly]

The judges only add +SEQ if the missed combo starts with a duplicate triple i.e. on the second 3Z attempt, the skater botches the landing and can’t get the second jump in. So if the first jump of the combo is, for example a 3S and the skater hasn’t already done one 3S, then no, this jump wouldn’t be counted as a +SEQ.

The judges don't add "+SEQ" at all -- that's a function of the technical panel.

In a long program, the tech panel would add +SEQ to a repeated jump as you describe.

They would also do so if a skater attempted to do a jump combination or sequence but put steps between the two jumps, including a significant error on the landing of the first jump, such that the two jumps did not meet the definition for either a jump combination or jump sequence. The second jump would not count at all, but the element would be called as +SEQ, earn the 0.8 multiplier penalty, and fill a combo/sequence slot.

And in long programs there is no requirement for any jumps to be preceded by footwork, so there's no penalty for absence of preceding steps.

In a short program, "jump sequence" is not a legal element, so you'll never see "+SEQ" in a SP protocol. If the skater doesn't do any combo, most likely because of a fall or other error on the first jump of the intended combo and inability to use a plan B, then the tech panel calls one of the non-axel jumps as +COMBO to fill that slot and earn the appropriate negative GOE.

See the Technical Panel Handbook Singles Skating for details.

[kwanfan1818]

It's not the same as Goebel's, but I've always been partial to Miki Ando's one-footed sequence into the 3F from her 2004 Worlds SP (starts at around 50"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE0xftARUog

At the end she turns front with a second pause and then back with a second pause into the jump, but the pauses are rhythmic, controlled, and follow the music.

[Dragonlady]

Long, unnecessary explanation snipped.

Although I should have stated more clearly when I was referring to SP (re: required combo) and LP (+SEQ), I was already well aware of these rules and did not require any length explanation of same, although readers to this thread may have been confused by my failure to specify which program I was referring to.

[Seerek]

I'm assuming that the judges don't necessarily "know" with 100% certainty in real-time that the intended jumping pass was meant to be the triple (or quadruple) (presumably) out of steps until they see what the 2nd non-axel jumping pass in the short program ends up being. Only then can they figure out if the "+COMBO" omission needs to be applied and whether the "preceding" steps criteria was met.

[Dragonlady]

I'm assuming that the judges don't necessarily "know" with 100% certainty in real-time that the intended jumping pass was meant to be the triple (or quadruple) (presumably) out of steps until they see what the 2nd non-axel jumping pass in the short program ends up being. Only then can they figure out if the "+COMBO" omission needs to be applied and whether the "preceding" steps criteria was met.

Yeah I think they do "know" because I understand that the skaters are required to submit a list of elements now.

[alilou]

Although I should have stated more clearly when I was referring to SP (re: required combo) and LP (+SEQ), I was already well aware of these rules and did not require any length explanation of same, although readers to this thread may have been confused by my failure to specify which program I was referring to.

I just thought gkelly was adding to your explanation so Japanfan would understand

[Aussie Willy]

I'm assuming that the judges don't necessarily "know" with 100% certainty in real-time that the intended jumping pass was meant to be the triple (or quadruple) (presumably) out of steps until they see what the 2nd non-axel jumping pass in the short program ends up being. Only then can they figure out if the "+COMBO" omission needs to be applied and whether the "preceding" steps criteria was met.

All skaters are required to submit a Planned Program Content (PPC) at the time of entering the event (or are meant to submit it). The elements get manually entered into the ISUCalc program before the event (I did them all for our National Championships a few weeks ago and it took hours - arghhhhh!!!).

The judging sheets are then printed for all the judges and technical panel and they list all the elements that the skater has submitted on their PPC.

Doesn't mean that is what the skater actually does as the tech panel and judges evaluate the element as done, but you get a good idea of what they plan to do.

Also the +COMBO part doesn't need to be data entered anymore as you can tell if there are two jumps for that element that it is a combination, but the +SEQ does get used.

[Rock2]

There are heaps of examples of break in choreo and steps before solo triple, especially among the ladies. Some of the better executions tended to be in 3Ls (Slutskaya, Ruh, Kostner/2005) while some of the fails have been on lutzes (Kostner 2007sp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XX1kxQLMsw&feature=fvw)