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  1. #41
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    What small things do people miss from 6.0 exactly?

    I just can't bear to watch any 6.0 programs anymore, they make me .

    CoP resulted in skaters paying attention to all the details. They have to make effort on all of the elements now.

    And the concepts of transitions, choreography, etc. were finally verbalised and operationalised. Which translated to at least some of the skaters making effort with their programs.

    In other words, everything improved. Yay for IJS!

    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    The main thing I don't like about COP, at least for singles and pairs, is that most of the programs don't look all that great (IMO). Choreography is a problem, due to all the requirements. I think programs were more indvidual and enjoyable to watch under 6.0. I wish the same could happen under CoP.
    Most programs had even weaker choreography before IJS was introduced.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosjenka View Post
    well - skaters dont have to "wait their turn" to get higher in rankings or on the podium.
    And North Americans can now win in ice dancing.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    YES! Our juvenile, intermediate, and novice skaters have become so much better with the implementation of CoP. These levels are so much more competitive than they were ten years ago.
    I was flabbergasted at the quality of the women's novice event at nationals last year. I was expecting to see a few 3t and 3s, but instead I saw a few 3z and a really high quality of skating. It's sad though, that the winner of that event, Leah Keiser didn't even qualify for Nationals this year. That said, I'm really excited for the junior ladies event because of all the talent.
    Logic is in the eye of the logician --Gloria Steinem

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post

    Most programs had even weaker choreography before IJS was introduced.
    I agree with this.

    I think many people who think the choreo was better remember the artists and the masterpieces under 6.0 and not all the mediocre ones or the ones that won because of jump content with not so much else.

  5. #45
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    I agree that CoP doesn't help Pair skating !
    In fact, it's already very difficult to see beautiful simple pair spins (such as Scwarz&Muller side by side camel spin). Now, we rarely see good spins with change of edge...
    Idem about Lifts and death spirals.

    With CoP, pair skaters need to be very good at single skating, which is not always the case !

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Most programs had even weaker choreography before IJS was introduced.
    I don't know about that. This program had difficult jump entries and nice edgework and it's definitely pre-CoP!

    In all seriousness, though, as a skater I like that you get useful feedback on your performances. As a viewer I don't like the cookie cutter sameness of programs, although I do think the spin and spiral rule changes for this year have gone a long way in fixing that problem.

  7. #47

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    I like how it has helped skaters realize that they need to be well rounded in their skills and strong at everything. I like that each jump, spin or footwork sequence is awarded difficulty and quality points...because everything gets a point value, skaters know they need to improve their weaknesses in order to be competitive. Under the 6.0 system, jumps, spins and footwork sequences all had to be lumped under one technical merit mark...and since I think it's safe to say the jumps mainly drove that mark, it was easier to hide a weakness in another area and not really have it factor in (as long as you were a strong jumper). Now your skills need to be well rounded because everything counts for points.

  8. #48
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    Ladies' World and Olympic medalists are young women instead of little girls. COP seems to favor all-around mature skaters more over jumping beans. The most noticeable benefit is the increased complexity in footwork sequences. This is my favorite change as a result of COP. I also really like how ice dancing has become more of an athletic event under COP. I miss the simplistic beauty of 6.0 era spins though. Some of the COP spins are so fugly.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 12-07-2010 at 12:26 AM.

  9. #49

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    Spins may have included more revolutions, but many are revolutions in really ugly positions ("Ooh, I've got an owie on my knee," "If I yank hard enough I know I will be able to get that skate up into a Belimann," and the ever-popular "going really slowly in circles" outside spin.)

    The way COP spins are judges, skaters get a lot more points for messy change of position spins than they do for fast, centered, beautifully stretched and executed spins, so I would disagree that COP has improved spins.

    And the COP footwork sequences all too often (Takahashi aside) end up looking like people wandering in the wilderness looking for lost contacts on the ice. The pairs footwork sequences are even worse.

  10. #50
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    I don't think the benefits of COP have been fully realized yet. I think in a few years when new coaches who have only coached under COP rear students who have only known COP, then we will see the full range that COP has. Right now, there are still so many coaches and choreographers out there who have worked under 6.0 for the vast majority of their careers. It can't be easy for them to switch their teaching methods to more COP-friendly elements and programs.

  11. #51
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    ^ I agree with this. We are not fully out of the generation of 6.0 yet. The young ones coming up are the ones who will reap the full benefits of CoP.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    What small things do people miss from 6.0 exactly?

    I just can't bear to watch any 6.0 programs anymore, they make me .

    CoP resulted in skaters paying attention to all the details. They have to make effort on all of the elements now.

    And the concepts of transitions, choreography, etc. were finally verbalised and operationalised. Which translated to at least some of the skaters making effort with their programs.

    In other words, everything improved. Yay for IJS!
    Things aren't bad under CoP. I had the same impression as you, after watching CoP for a few years and then going back to the older performances. The older performances seemed so bare and empty, skaters just kind of stroking around with their arms out not doing much in between elements...

    But then there are a few things that we don't really see anymore, like split jumps/falling leafs and really fast, if simpler, spins. Also, I kind of notice figure skaters repeating the same transitions over and over again even if there is no direct choreographic relevance...and that difficult jumps tend to occur close to the very beginning of the program, and then again right after the halfway mark.

    So, I agree with many that the CoP has promoted more detail-oriented programs, and stronger technical progress. However, I feel that overall program/coherent choreography has regressed. I guess I will have to wait for the system to keep tweaking itself, and for skaters to evolve with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by shiningstar View Post
    I don't think the benefits of COP have been fully realized yet. I think in a few years when new coaches who have only coached under COP rear students who have only known COP, then we will see the full range that COP has. Right now, there are still so many coaches and choreographers out there who have worked under 6.0 for the vast majority of their careers. It can't be easy for them to switch their teaching methods to more COP-friendly elements and programs.
    Really great points.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    I agree with this.

    I think many people who think the choreo was better remember the artists and the masterpieces under 6.0 and not all the mediocre ones or the ones that won because of jump content with not so much else.
    Well, yes... but out of curiosity, which CoP programs would you consider masterpieces thus far, if any? Granted, it's a newer judging system and we might need to wait a while, but the years spanning 1996-2002 were amazing compared to 2004-2010.
    Last edited by PUNKPRINCESS; 12-07-2010 at 03:37 AM.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    ^ I agree with this. We are not fully out of the generation of 6.0 yet. The young ones coming up are the ones who will reap the full benefits of CoP.
    I don't think anyone is going to reap the full benefits of COP until judges start using the full range of marks on technical elements -- giving high grades to extremely well done Level 1 elements, for example -- and significantly varying component scores based on what is seen on the ice during the actual competition. Unfortunately, the "corridor" nonsense rather strongly discourages this, and we still see a huge amount of protocol judging.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by PUNKPRINCESS View Post
    out of curiosity, which CoP programs would you consider masterpieces thus far, if any? Granted, it's a newer judging system and we might need to wait a while, but the years spanning 1996-2002 were amazing compared to 2004-2010.
    Not to cop out or anything (haha = no pun intended!) but I think I am going to start a thread asking this exact question. But masterpiece may be too strong a word - maybe outstanding or memorable or possibly even Masterpiece?

    I will also come up with my own answers!

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I agree that CoP doesn't help Pair skating !
    In fact, it's already very difficult to see beautiful simple pair spins (such as Scwarz&Muller side by side camel spin). Now, we rarely see good spins with change of edge...
    Idem about Lifts and death spirals.
    I agree about how CoP has probably done the most damage to pairs, especially when it comes to death spirals (example: http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2010/...th-spiral.html)

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    Quote Originally Posted by vodkashot View Post
    I agree about how CoP has probably done the most damage to pairs, especially when it comes to death spirals (example: http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2010/...th-spiral.html)
    That blog post says everything I've ever wanted to say about the travesty that is the modern death spiral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    What small things do people miss from 6.0 exactly?
    Ziggy, some people will always miss the good old days. Don't bother them with facts.

  18. #58
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    Most of what I like about COP has been covered. Re: scoring, I love the fact that a less-than-perfect sp won't bury a skater..none of that so-and so has to beat so-and-so for so and so- to win. A skater controls his/her own destiny , assuming that the judging is fair.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by vodkashot View Post
    I agree about how CoP has probably done the most damage to pairs, especially when it comes to death spirals (example: http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2010/...th-spiral.html)
    Agreed; however, I personally have never liked the death spiral as a skating element under 6.0 or COP. To me, it's just not an attractive looking element; it deserves a place on the skating wall of shame next to Sasha's beaver flash I-spin. I dislike how so often it appears that the guy is going to fall over when he is in the pivot position while sluggishly struggling to circle his partner around him while she maintains a lifeless looking pose. It's easily my least favorite pairs element.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Spins may have included more revolutions, but many are revolutions in really ugly positions ("Ooh, I've got an owie on my knee," "If I yank hard enough I know I will be able to get that skate up into a Belimann," and the ever-popular "going really slowly in circles" outside spin.)

    The way COP spins are judges, skaters get a lot more points for messy change of position spins than they do for fast, centered, beautifully stretched and executed spins, so I would disagree that COP has improved spins.
    Ok, i'll give you that CoP has given rise to some fugly positions and changes, but wouldn't you agree that the depth of overall great spinners has gone up tremendously since pre-CoP?

    In the past you could look at top ten at worlds and there would have only ever been 2 or 3 really credible spinners in the singles events. Now almost the entire top 10 in singles have great spinning ability.

    2003 worlds for example (if you look further back it gets worse), Sandhu, Klimkin and Lambiel would have been considered gifted spinners...the rest were all so-so. The reverse is true today. Only Van der Perren, Brezina and Joubert would be considered so-so spinners in the worlds top ten, the rest are great (IMO, of course).

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