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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoriaheidi View Post
    Even though I definitely think we could have a better system, the direct number system is what I love. If properly executed (it definitely isn't always that way), a skater theoretically earns a set number of points. The 6.0 system was a little more arbitrary.

    That's why I find GOE and PCS somewhat absurd-couldn't a skater be pushed upward or downward via negative GOE or low PCS? What about the fact that ISU videos (like jumps and whatnot) are not released-ever? Who's to say that there aren't some of the same dealings that caused the 6.0 system to be overhauled in the first place?
    You are hitting the nail on the head with your observations here. Exactly the point of my argument. CoP is not properly executed, largely because it was implemented in a rushed forced manner, purely to appease the IOC, and to help protect the judges, but not to truly help the skaters or the sport. And, true, neither system is perfect, but if they had taken their time, and if their motives had been pure and totally for the benefit of helping the sport to progress, then they might have taken the time to fully review 6.0, and see how they could make it better, and change it in a way that lessened the arbitrariness of the scoring. The thing is, use 6.0 numbering but in a better, fairer way. You can't tell me that it was impossible -- they just didn't take the necessary time to study it, and think about making effective improvements and introducing the changes in a better way. The way they implemented CoP, is much like the way they simply decided to get rid of figures, without giving any thought or careful consideration to the consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticchic View Post
    CoP has it's good points and bad. Better quality spins and jumps. But somewhere the beauty of the skates have gone to the wayside. The SP is basically cookie cutter. Pose, stroke, 3/2 (or 3/3) then spin, stoke, footwork into 3, 2A, footwork to spin, final pose.
    Then men are the most interesting. They have thrived under CoP with quads. There is nothing really new with the women (except Mao 3A). More 3/3 and then the tacked on 2 loop or toe.
    But there seems to be more falls because skaters are trying more jumps. I agree PCS's are being abused.
    The bolded part That is what my argument is all about. Skating now is made up of parts, not the whole. There is beauty in the whole, and the whole is mostly nonexistent. The best skaters and choreographers are trying to meet the challenge of overcoming the damage wrought by CoP. But, in the instances where skaters are putting together a thoughtful, whole program that has depth (such as Jeremy Abbott), they often don't get the credit they truly deserve.

    I don't think the men have exactly thrived under CoP with quads. I don't see that at all. Most of the men struggle with making their quads consistent, and trying to figure out the best strategic use of a quad. Some of the men (like Chan) who do perfect a quad, often do it to the detriment of their triples. And I don't see any men who have yet managed to perform quads on a regular basis and escape injury -- that is the other reason, IMO, why a lot of men are cautious about attempting them.

    The fact there may be "nothing really new with the women" likely has more to do with cycles in skating, and IMO, also a lot to do with the elimination of figures resulting in many ladies having problems with mastering their edge technique. CoP has merely complicated issues that already existed among the ladies field.

    I'm also not sure it's necessarily true that there are more falls because "skaters are trying more jumps."

  2. #22
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    My biggest complaint with CoP is that the LP has become a longer version of the SP-- required elements wil a four more jumping passes. Now we see the same three spins (since they got rid of the fourth), similarly boring, long step sequences, and until this season in the ladies, the same Spiral Sequence.

    I do think the elimination of the spiral seq. in the LP is good (although I miss it in the SP); ladies are now varying their spirals again to actually match the music. Kostner's use of spirals in the LP is particularly nice. I really missed normal back spirals.

    Spins are still too long and similar looking... I want them to only score spins based on execution in both SP and LP.

  3. #23

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    well - skaters dont have to "wait their turn" to get higher in rankings or on the podium.

  4. #24
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    While I'm in favor of a lot of the ideas behind CoP I can't help but think that it wasn't beta tested nearly enough and that its first version has some fatal flaws which include (but aren't limited to) the following:

    Levels - too many too soon. I would have started with only one level so that GoE is more important (speed, centering, positions).

    Discrete scoring of levels - by making sure that a very bad level 3 spin would get more points than a very good level 2. This guarantees lots of really bad level 3 spins (which is what we've gotten).

    Assuming that all skaters find the jumps difficult in the same order (despite much, much, much evidence to the contrary).

    I would have scored jumps by variety so that (with solo triple jumps) the first triple would get X number of points, the next different triple would get X+y points, the next would get X+y+z etc etc.

    In short, CoP encourages unimaginative point whoring.

    It's pretty effectively killed my interest in following skating on an ongoing basis and ..... I think that was part of the plan, to alienate traditional more knowledgeable fans and replace them with uncritical newer ones.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosjenka View Post
    well - skaters dont have to "wait their turn" to get higher in rankings or on the podium.
    PCS are still used this way. The more your reputation grows, the more your PCS grow.

  6. #26
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    I've noticed most of the posts have been about how COP/IJS has affected singles (mainly for the better) and a few about dance. There are NONE about pairs yet, and that to me really shows how pairs has benefited the least from this system. How ironic, that we have a new judging system because of the SLC pairs scandal, yet now I find pairs to be the least watchable. In dance, IJS has, like others have already said, made the lifts more athletic, the choreography more interesting, and dance as a discipline easier to measure and therefore, made the competition more exciting. In pairs, IJS has completely destroyed the aesthetic beauty of it - the most beautiful elements, the lifts and death spirals, are now so ugly I can barely stand it. If I see one more blade-grabbing lift with a crazy, fugly dismount that has almost come to a standstill I will poke my eyes out. Same with the ugly, predictable death spiral where they change hands and it slows down so much the man has to "heave" the woman up out of the spiral. I miss 6.0 the most with the pairs.

  7. #27
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    About pairs, it decided to educate myself and watched this weekend Lillehammer Olympics, pairs were jaw dropping,I wouldnt believe it d be my fav category to watch, so many interesting programs, lifts and moves i didnt know they existed before. Fantastic!
    For this season I mind the spins in men.Adds nothing to programs, highlights no music and it just helps you to learn to count. In TEB all of them tried the donut spin and in most cases this is an ugly catch foot bad bretzel.

  8. #28
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    The overall quality has improved so much under COP. You can really see this at the lower levels like pre novice & novice. In the past, sometimes the fields in these levels were DREADFUL. The kids are really learning that they have to skate and perform and get it done. These kids are growing up in COP and will make the higher levels even better when they get there.

  9. #29

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    Hmmm ... for a topic about COP improving skating I see very little to support it.

    I've started watching skating on TV waaaaaay back in the 60's and didn't get to see much back then. When TV finally began to show more I watched more as well and often wondered how the judged figured out how to give someone a 5.9/5.9 compared to someone who got a 5.8/5.8 when in my eyes they were pretty much even. I couldn't comprehend how you figured out who got what place. I will say that when a skater or couple got a 6.0, I understood that but sometimes I felt the 6.0 wasn't warranted. I also felt that the judges seemed to manage a way to keep the top 3 after the short/OD in the top 3 most times regardless of how well or poorly the skater/team did.

    COP - for the most part I love the intention it was meant to provide. I love how skaters can be rewarded for what they do, get deducted for what they mess up on and get detailed information on what they did which means to me that they know what areas they need to improve. I do have a problem with using PCS in propping up some skaters due to what seems to be their reputation. I also have a problem with judges giving similar marks in PCS for a skater. As has been said here many a time, just because a skater likely deserves 8-9 in one area, it's quite likely they don't in all areas of PCS. I would like to see that part revisited.

    On the whole, I like COP. I like that it has challenged the skaters to be more athletic generally speaking. I like that there can be a lot of movement amongst the skaters and that just because you are not in the top three after the short doesn't mean you don't have a decent/good shot at still making the podium. I like seeing numbers to explain why one skater finished higher than another (yeah, I like numbers they make sense to me) and we can see how much a skater attempted/garnered in points. We still argue about the PCS but we can now use the numbers in the TES and the PCS to explain our position on a skater rather than using the old "but I think skater A is better than skater B" and not really have much to back it up other than how we feel about skater A vs B.

    Even with all it's apparent flaws, I'll take COP.
    Crazy about sports!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmcC102 View Post
    My biggest complaint with CoP is that the LP has become a longer version of the SP-- required elements wil a four more jumping passes. Now we see the same three spins (since they got rid of the fourth), similarly boring, long step sequences, and until this season in the ladies, the same Spiral Sequence.
    There's no more spiral sequence in Ladies SP.
    But I agree with you. I loved the fact that you couldn't try again a missed element in the SP. But now, you can't try again an element in the LP !
    We lost the "Free" Skate spirit ! It's really a Long Program !

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Have to disagree with the last two posters that these developments are solely the result of CoP. The depth in the men's field is due to the talent of these highly trained skaters -- very much less to do with CoP, and more to do with other influences such as competing with other extremely talented skaters and trying to improve your own skills just to keep up with your competitors. There's power and grace among the men today but not because of CoP. (IMO it has more to do with the influence of skaters like Johnny Weir, Stephane, Buttle, and before them Emanuel Sandhu showing that men could be elegant, creative, graceful, vulnerable and powerful with macho finesse, and without falling forward on every jump landing -- once upon a time, Cranston, Curry, Robin Cousins, Boitano and Orser showed this power, elegance, precision, and virtuosity as well in their own way, and they did so without CoP). Not saying that 6.0 was a perfect system. It was not, and it needed to be tweaked, but not thrown out, like throwing the baby out with the bath water. In this case, like Evan was recently quoted as saying, the sport eliminated "their brand" when they eliminated 6.0.
    Do you honestly think any of those skaters would have come back or continued after Plushy through his hat in the ring? Without someone acknowledged as a true rival, the gold would have been his. But COP let the men feel that they had a chance. THAT is why there was so much depth at the Olympics, and a US men's nationals, imo.

    Under 6.0, judges could "retire" you. Now this power has been cut almost in 1/2. That's a good thing.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    PCS are still used this way. The more your reputation grows, the more your PCS grow.
    True.
    But still - under 6.0 there would be no chance for Virtue&Moir, Davis&White to medal at the Olympics or at Worlds on V&M second attending as seniors.

    I do agree that pars are devastatingly boring to watch under CoP. Very few pairs can actually deliver complex programs that are put together to flatter the system.

  13. #33
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    I think the mens' programs are much more interesting. It's not just skate to one end of the rink, do a 4-3, skate to the other end, do a 3A, you get the picture. I think the dancers have had to really improve the quality of their technical skating skills, too. Before CoP, if one partner was weak, it could be hidden.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I think the mens' programs are much more interesting. It's not just skate to one end of the rink, do a 4-3, skate to the other end, do a 3A, you get the picture. I think the dancers have had to really improve the quality of their technical skating skills, too. Before CoP, if one partner was weak, it could be hidden.
    For me, dance is where I see the most improvement.
    Logic is in the eye of the logician --Gloria Steinem

  15. #35

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    Pairs is the worst.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by googooeyes View Post
    The overall quality has improved so much under COP. You can really see this at the lower levels like pre novice & novice. In the past, sometimes the fields in these levels were DREADFUL. The kids are really learning that they have to skate and perform and get it done. These kids are growing up in COP and will make the higher levels even better when they get there.
    YES! Our juvenile, intermediate, and novice skaters have become so much better with the implementation of CoP. These levels are so much more competitive than they were ten years ago.

  17. #37

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    From a skater, coach and judge perspective, the majority think IJS is a big improvement to the way skating is judged. The protocols are really appreciated and help with the learning process.

    From a skater perspective, the skaters love that their elements get GOEs. They understand it. You can also tell them why you have given them particular components and break it down for them. Before with 6.0 it was evaluated by two marks that basically placed them and didn't tell them anything about what they did. Skaters are also looking for PBs to tell them if they are improving.

    For coaches, they also can get better feedback about their skaters. I know a few who were very cynical to start with, but they have come to appreciate it. They get information about what areas their skaters need to improve on.

    From a judging perspective, as someone who didn't have to judge 26 Intermediate Ladies under 6.0 who would all be pretty much the same standard, it is a blessing. You judge what you see and each element as it comes. You don't have to justify why you put such and such a skater in a particular place because the computer does it for you. However as a judge you also get feedback on your performance as you can compare what you gave to the other judges and learn from that. You also get an opportunity to reward good elements or PCS which you couldn't under 6.0.

    Downsides of IJS?

    Well the number of people required to run an event has certainly grown and it is requires a lot of skill and knowledge for even just the data entry people. Skating is an incredibly technical sport and thus requires a lot of training and knowledge development for it operate. It places greater demands on the volunteer workforce. But in the end can be very rewarding and provide an opportunity to develop new skills and knowledge.

    It is also a lot less environmentally sustainable with the amount of paper and electricity you use to run an event.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  18. #38

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    Good points, Aussie Willy.

    The main thing I don't like about COP, at least for singles and pairs, is that most of the programs don't look all that great (IMO). Choreography is a problem, due to all the requirements. I think programs were more indvidual and enjoyable to watch under 6.0. I wish the same could happen under CoP.

  19. #39
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    Comparing an ordinal system to numeric, of course the second is better, since the marks are absolute and not just placements. Plus all the reasons written in the above message. They just need to improve some rules, like the 3 jump combo as mentioned before that everyone adds a 2toe at the end of everything and some more, I dont like in CoP that the skater cant really correct a jump mistake later and the ghost sequences/combos and get marked for something they didnt actually do.
    Many members here have written quite clever adjustments in details but whenever they change the rules non of these proposals are in.

  20. #40

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    The only improvement I see is edge calls on flutzes. I almost mentioned under-rotations, but am ambivalent. Too many times an apparently clean performance that gets a standing O is penalized for something the caller saw on a slow-mo replay. I do think that skaters should be penalized if they cheat their jumps, but perhaps it should be left up to the judges to make the call on GOE. When a skater routinely cheats, it will become known and the judges will look for it. Baseball still depends on the naked eye. Why can't figure skating?

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