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  1. #1
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    In what ways has CoP IMPROVED skating?

    There's so much talk about the problems with the CoP system and all the small things that people miss from 6.0.

    I know many may disagree, but what do you think has gotten better in skating since the advent of CoP?

    I would say spins have gotten way better since 2003. Generally all the top men and women now have super fast and centered spins with lots of difficult positions, whereas 10 years ago, travelling spins with un-held weak positions were often the norm in senior skating.

    Skaters now fix their jumping technique when it's wonky...how awesome could Tara Lipinski, Sarah Hughes or Nicole Bobek have been with clean jump technique like Rochette or Kim?

    Arguably footwork and use of edges have gotten better, but at the expense speed in order to get the required steps in.

    That leads me to my last point...STEPS in choereography! The fact judges are explicitly assessing choreagraphy, transitions, and perfromance seperately forces the skater to spend some time working on each.

    Although it's not perfect, I like the result of CoP!
    Last edited by Blair; 12-04-2010 at 03:22 PM.

  2. #2
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    Biellmann's have gotten better!

  3. #3
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    - It's no more only about jumps
    - Better spins
    - Proper jump technic
    - Steps before and after jumps
    - Steps sequence
    - Transitions
    - Efforts done by skaters in all areas of FS in order to fulfill COP's requirements that give abetter and more interesting field to follow.

  4. #4
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    Basic skating is better than in the late 90's and early 2000's. But after all, it was better under the figure era ! lol

  5. #5
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    I think I see the biggest difference in spins. Fast, long and held in (some) good positions.

  6. #6

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    I agree with all the comments above. However, for me the greatest improvement is in the outcome of competitions. For the most part skating fans come away with the feeling that the right people were in the right order. The wuzrobbed chorus has been reduced enormously.

    I now come away from a competition with a feeling of pleasure, rather than frustration.

    The CoP has given skaters something concrete to strive toward. With the 6.0 system everything was nebulous. Now skaters know that, if all goes as they practiced, they should get XX marks. Want more marks? Do more tricks.

  7. #7

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    I also agree with most of what has been written.

    I would also add - that whether we agree with it or not - or even if we don't think PCS is being used properly - at least you can see what the detailed breakdown is as far as the judges /tech callers are concerned.

    Skaters can then adjust for higher levels, work on specific areas where they would like to get higher marks.

    Again - although not everyone is in complete agreement - at least the numbers are broken down more clearly than in 6.0 when one judge would give a 5.4 to the rest of the panel's 5.8s or when judges placed a skater or skaters everywhere from 3-10th place.

  8. #8
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    The proportion of really boring skaters has gone down, and the proportion of "complete" skaters with choreography as well as excellent jumps has gone up. For too many decades, the really boring skaters often would win if they could skate good figures and land jumps.

    The standings are not completely predictable. In ice dance there is a quest for ever-harder choreography. That means more weird falls, but also more shakeup in the final results.

    Tweaking the system is an ongoing process, but it's improving. It's such a relief not to have so many awful pair spiral positions, and variety in singles spin positions this year. Getting the PCS to actually reflect the range of skills of the skaters still needs to be worked on, though.

  9. #9

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    I too like the standings are not so predictable under CoP. But for me, I haven't really noticed an improvement in spinning. The good spinners (Czisny, Lambiel) are going to be good spinners no matter what, like Scott Davis and Lucinda Ruh. Mostly, I think skaters struggle with all these different spin edges and positions. So I'm not a fan of spins under CoP.

    But I love that skaters are really being made to look at a real lutz, flip, etc.!

    (Still hate the long--and usually slow--step sequences and all the spiral positions!)

  10. #10

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    I also enjoy that the standings can flip flop. It's kind of exciting to see skaters have a note great short and then pull up in the long. That could happen in 6.0, but not to the same extent and it was contingent on a lot of variables.

    I have to say that even though I've been a skating fan for 19 years now, I enjoy watching skating even more than I did under 6.0. One of the reasons is that I feel like if the skaters complete their elements they get the credit for it. A good example is Mae Bernice Meite at TEB. She had the highest TES score of the night. Under 6.0, that would not have happened. In fact, her scores probably would have been significantly lower than the skaters who placed higher due to PCS. One example that pops out at me was a lower ranked pairs team at nationals one year that had the performance of their lives in the long. They were in an early group and had done poorly in the short. However, they had basically the same level of difficulty as the high ranked teams. Everything was clean and yet they still go scores in the low 4s for technical merit. Under 6.0 they would have gotten more credit for their elements.

    When COP first started, I liked step sequences more, but now they are just too long and labored. In fact, sometimes when I'm watching JPG I wonder if the choreographers are getting arrested for child labor for those clunky 40-50 second step sequences.
    Logic is in the eye of the logician --Gloria Steinem

  11. #11
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    Programs became like a kaleidoscope- everything is changing so fast, from one element to other.. It's difficult to see the story but that's fun!

  12. #12
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    Gives FSUers one more subject to bicker about

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    I think COP/IJS changed ice dance quite a bit. There is more movement within a competition and between competitions. That makes it more exciting. I also like that dance is so much more athletic now. And the lifts have become amazing.

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    I love how skaters seem to think, and rightly so, that they could win.
    The spectacular depth in the men's field NEVER would have happened under 6.0. Half those guys would have retired or not come back under the old system.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

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    Have to disagree with the last two posters that these developments are solely the result of CoP. The depth in the men's field is due to the talent of these highly trained skaters -- very much less to do with CoP, and more to do with other influences such as competing with other extremely talented skaters and trying to improve your own skills just to keep up with your competitors. There's power and grace among the men today but not because of CoP. (IMO it has more to do with the influence of skaters like Johnny Weir, Stephane, Buttle, and before them Emanuel Sandhu showing that men could be elegant, creative, graceful, vulnerable and powerful with macho finesse, and without falling forward on every jump landing -- once upon a time, Cranston, Curry, Robin Cousins, Boitano and Orser showed this power, elegance, precision, and virtuosity as well in their own way, and they did so without CoP). Not saying that 6.0 was a perfect system. It was not, and it needed to be tweaked, but not thrown out, like throwing the baby out with the bath water. In this case, like Evan was recently quoted as saying, the sport eliminated "their brand" when they eliminated 6.0.

    __________________________________________________ _______________

    IMHO, I think the challenge for the best skaters is to overcome the limitations and stringent, contradictory demands of CoP (also the boring sameness of everyone doing similar moves/ "tricks"). Those are just some of the challenges... which are being met in programs like Dai's sp last season (and his rockin' Swan Lake sp); and Jeremy's Abbott's sp last season. Stephane had beautifully choreographed programs for 2010 Olympics, but he simply didn't skate well.

    Whatever positive comes out of CoP is in spite of the forced way CoP was implemented IMHO. The skaters have to skate under the system that is in existence, and many of the skaters now are used to skating under this system and therefore don't have to make the adjustments that many of the veterans had to make when the system was first implemented. The kiss n' cry is not so much fun anymore. It takes skaters a long double take until they even realize what the numbers mean, i.e., where they will land in the standings.

    The idea that doing more "tricks" will give you more marks, is just "ugh" to me. What about thinking more about music and choreography that suits them, and doing something interesting and unique with music, costume, choreography, and concept as a whole that will wow everyone, rather thinking of single elements, and "tricks" just to point gather. Obviously, strategy is always important in competition, but IMO, putting together a complete program should be the focus. To me, the whole is and should be more important than the parts (such as IMO, the ridiculous 3-jump combo --- so f'ing what? Skaters show they know how to do a triple/ double, and then come to almost a complete standstill to tack on another double... Big deal. But yes, I know, under CoP, it's so f'ing important to tack on whatever you can for the godalmighty points. Does it flow with the music, does it make sense to the choreography -- most of the time, N O!)

    In an ideal world, yes, there are positives to look at under CoP -- mainly from the efforts by those who truly wanted to find a better and a fairer scoring system. Unfortunately, however, the main reason CoP was forced into existence was to appease the IOC, and to protect the judges, not to make things fairer and better for the skaters. The fairer and better scenario was just the ruse and the selling point $peedy and the ISU used.

    IMO, mostly younger fans, and people obsessed with numbers and protocols are in love with CoP. I do agree that some of the positive points presented in this thread are well put, but I have to disagree with "everything changing so fast" being fun. Sometimes there is just too much going on in programs, too much frenetic busyness that amounts to nothing. It's not pleasing to watch, unless there is true depth, difficulty, great music that flows well with the choreography, and that is performed well by the skater. Jeremy Abbott has a really thoughtful free program this season, chock full of difficult entrances into and exits out of jumps, and he hasn't been given much credit for this from the judges. His music is fairly subtle, and that might not be helping him, but it is an extraordinary program. While Florent Amodio is an interesting skater, his free program this season is jaw-dropping, and not in a good way. Yet the judges seem to be taken in or overtaken by it -- maybe it was Florent's agressive expressions that frightened them into giving him high scores??? Some beautiful quad landings by Chan this season, and some even more awe-inspiring falls to the ice -- guess the judges thought the falls were just part of Chan's overall choreo?!
    Last edited by aftershocks; 12-05-2010 at 06:05 AM.

  16. #16
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    When I saw this thread, I thought, "jumps!" There's an increased emphasis on getting a proper takeoff/landing and on rotating the jump as thoroughly as possible.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    The idea that doing more "tricks" will give you more marks, is just "ugh" to me. What about thinking more about music and choreography that suits them, and doing something interesting and unique with music, costume, choreography, and concept as a whole that will wow everyone, rather thinking of single elements, and "tricks" just to point gather. Obviously, strategy is always important in competition, but IMO, putting together a complete program should be the focus. To me, the whole is and should be more important than the parts (such as IMO, the ridiculous 3-jump combo --- so f'ing what? Skaters show they know how to do a triple/ double, and then come to almost a complete standstill to tack on another double... Big deal. But yes, I know, under CoP, it's so f'ing important to tack on whatever you can for the godalmighty points. Does it flow with the music, does it make sense to the choreography -- most of the time, N O!)
    Aftershocks, I think I love you. Couldn't have said it better myself.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    IMO, mostly younger fans, and people obsessed with numbers and protocols are in love with CoP.
    Even though I definitely think we could have a better system, the direct number system is what I love. If properly executed (it definitely isn't always that way), a skater theoretically earns a set number of points. The 6.0 system was a little more arbitrary.

    That's why I find GOE and PCS somewhat absurd-couldn't a skater be pushed upward or downward via negative GOE or low PCS? What about the fact that ISU videos (like jumps and whatnot) are not released-ever? Who's to say that there aren't some of the same dealings that caused the 6.0 system to be overhauled in the first place?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    ... for me, I haven't really noticed an improvement in spinning. The good spinners (Czisny, Lambiel) are going to be good spinners no matter what, like Scott Davis and Lucinda Ruh. Mostly, I think skaters struggle with all these different spin edges and positions. So I'm not a fan of spins under CoP.
    ... (Still hate the long--and usually slow--step sequences and all the spiral positions!)
    Agree with you here too, mostly skateboy. And thanks for the love.

    So true that good spinning technique is based on many things, CoP not being one of them. In Alyssa's case, she said it was practice, but I think it's also some kind of innate ability that some skaters have more of than others. It is good to give credit to elements that didn't seem to get much credit under 6.0 - But, IMO, there should have been a way to give credit for various elements, and fix the overall scoring problems, without completely doing away with 6.0. Step sequences can be boring when they are not well put together and not skated well, and/or have nothing to do with the music. Spiral positions among most of the women today are ugly and boring (aside from Zhang, Mirai, Alyssa -- maybe a few others).


    Quote Originally Posted by victoriaheidi View Post
    When I saw this thread, I thought, "jumps!" There's an increased emphasis on getting a proper takeoff/landing and on rotating the jump as thoroughly as possible.
    Pardon me, but IMHO, an increased emphasis on getting take-offs right is because of the lack of edge control many skaters exhibit, because they never had to practice figures, which is how skaters from years ago learned to master control of their edges, and thus were able to enter and exit jumps using the proper edge and displaying the proper technique.

    Please go to school on exquisite edge technique by watching performances by Dorothy Hamill.

    re CoP having so much to do with emphasizing to skaters the importance of full rotation on jumps. What a laugher... sorry. The only reason that is being emphasized is because of the difficulty many skaters, especially the ladies, have in fully rotating because they are attempting difficult elements such as triple/ triples. And because of their difficulty in mastering proper edge technique on takeoff, which has a great deal to do with what happens in the air. If you don't take off properly, it is very difficult to launch high enough to give yourself enough air time to complete full rotations.

    Also, laughingly, CoP gives skaters credit for "rotations" even when the jump was not completed properly due to a fall. Truly laughable.

    The most positive thing about CoP, I'm sure for the judges and the ISU, is that they can manipulate without detection or oversight and make it up as they go along, merrily changing the rules every season for one reason or another, mainly because they didn't get it right before they forced CoP's implementation in the first place. And don't let me get started with the anonymity the judges enjoy.

  20. #20

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    CoP has it's good points and bad. Better quality spins and jumps. But somewhere the beauty of the skates have gone to the wayside. The SP is basically cookie cutter. Pose, stroke, 3/2 (or 3/3) then spin, stoke, footwork into 3, 2A, footwork to spin, final pose.
    Then men are the most interesting. They have thrived under CoP with quads. There is nothing really new with the women (except Mao 3A). More 3/3 and then the tacked on 2 loop or toe.
    But there seems to be more falls because skaters are trying more jumps. I agree PCS's are being abused.

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