View Poll Results: Which US ladies will make the World Team?

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  • Mirai Nagasu

    206 86.92%
  • Rachael Flatt

    140 59.07%
  • Christina Gao

    11 4.64%
  • Agnes Zawadzki

    8 3.38%
  • Alissa Czisny

    105 44.30%
  • Ashley Wagner

    39 16.46%
  • Amanda Dobbs

    2 0.84%
  • Vanessa Lam

    3 1.27%
  • Samantha Cesario

    3 1.27%
  • Other

    3 1.27%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    I've mentioned it before but I really think Czisny's 'volatility' may weigh on the judge's minds, ie - if Rachael lands 6 triples and Czisny lands 4 triples, the judges may reward Rachael with the spot.
    ^
    Does reward = earned = deserved in the way you've worded it??
    I'm really curious about this undertone/implication that I'm reading in the language of several messages on this thread
    ...and using your response above , Olympic, as a random example....nothing personal (I enjoy reading a lot of your msgs).

    The implication (actually innuendo from the judges perspective) is that they will knowingly, willfully, deliberately, not judge based on the application of CoP rules/scoring on the skater's observable performance in front of them, but rather collude....engage in some kind of konspiracy to annoint the "right" skater with the "right medal" (or not)...or would conspire on an individual basis, if not in unison with the wishes and "Worlds strategy" of USFS.

    What I keep reading here is the basic assumption that the judges will not/may not give the skater's what their performance deserves, but rather a score (deserved or not) to serve another agenda....which would be fraudulant behavior... and I assume violate the judges code of conduct on some level.
    We might as well condone Marie-Reine Le Gougne in Salt Lake City, if this is how US figure skating officialdom is conducting itself.....Are we???

    Besides the combination of FSUers simply disagreeing with the judges at times, combined with suspicion and/or speculation, what is your evidence that any judge or panel of them have or would "place" skaters on the podium based on something other than a scoring of the actual performance itself?

    I'm not a naive type of person...OTOH, maybe I'm reading too much into these various comments on this thread.
    Please clarify....tell me it's not what folks here mean even though it sounds like it.
    Thanx.



    .

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgobluegirl View Post
    That's the thing... Alissa, if she hits her jumps, is pretty much without equal in the world.
    That might be a bit of an exaggeration. Alissa's jumps are low, she lips, her loop is poor and she is without a 3-3. Even when she hits her jumps, she doesn't get a lot of +GOEs for them. It's just that nearly everything else about her skating is stellar, and that's what carries her through.

    However, I think it's without a doubt that if everyone were to go clean at Worlds, Alissa wouldn't stand a chance against the big guns. I'd include Mirai in the latter group.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgobluegirl View Post
    That's the thing... Alissa, if she hits her jumps, is pretty much without equal in the world. That's why I don't think she'll ever be completely out of the discussion... the idea is just too enticing.
    That's how everybody felt about Sasha Cohen, though. Jumps are always a big "if".

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by geod2 View Post
    ^
    Does reward = earned = deserved in the way you've worded it??
    I'm really curious about this undertone/implication that I'm reading in the language of several messages on this thread
    ...and using your response above , Olympic, as a random example....nothing personal (I enjoy reading a lot of your msgs).

    The implication (actually innuendo from the judges perspective) is that they will knowingly, willfully, deliberately, not judge based on the application of CoP rules/scoring on the skater's observable performance in front of them, but rather collude....engage in some kind of konspiracy to annoint the "right" skater with the "right medal" (or not)...or would conspire on an individual basis, if not in unison with the wishes and "Worlds strategy" of USFS.

    What I keep reading here is the basic assumption that the judges will not/may not give the skater's what their performance deserves, but rather a score (deserved or not) to serve another agenda....which would be fraudulant behavior... and I assume violate the judges code of conduct on some level.
    We might as well condone Marie-Reine Le Gougne in Salt Lake City, if this is how US figure skating officialdom is conducting itself.....Are we???

    Besides the combination of FSUers simply disagreeing with the judges at times, combined with suspicion and/or speculation, what is your evidence that any judge or panel of them have or would "place" skaters on the podium based on something other than a scoring of the actual performance itself?

    I'm not a naive type of person...OTOH, maybe I'm reading too much into these various comments on this thread.
    Please clarify....tell me it's not what folks here mean even though it sounds like it.
    Thanx.



    .
    First of all, thanks for reading my posts. At least I'm not ignored

    I'm not a skating insider, official, etc. just a schmuck that likes skating and posts his opinions on a message board, so a lot of what I post are opinions based on hunches from armchair observation.

    'reward' was probably the wrong term.

    In this particular example, I meant that in a close competition where Czisny and Flatt were vying for the 2d Worlds spot [for the sake of argument, let's say that Nagasu is a lock in 1st and Wagner buried herself in the SP] and Czisny completed 4 triples [usual fall, flub, bad step out on the rest] while Rachael completed 6 triples [perhaps a ur but otherwise as inspired as she can be], I agreed with another poster that they would be 'even' in the eyes of the judges. Now, it wouldn't be a collusion or anything else on the part of the judges. But my hunch is a majority of the judges individually would come to the deciding factor that Rachael would best represent the US at Worlds, better chance at getting 3 spots for 2012 than a volatile Czisny which is maybe a goal, perhaps even snag a bronze, etc. and with that in the back of her mind, 'reward' her with a team spot. [But not 'reward', simply put her ahead of Czisny; that term was wrong]. They could individually do that by maybe giving her slightly higher than normal PCS, GOE, etc.

    I don't know - but it seems that many judges know each other and think in the same manner, and don't necessarily have to openly collude, conspire, to come to certain same conclusions about what is best for the US [whom they represent] in terms of who will be the better competitor at Worlds, Olympics, etc. They know past results and watch practices. In summary - in a very close competition, those factors might sway a majority of judges

    It's all an opinion, a hunch
    Last edited by olympic; 12-03-2010 at 12:55 PM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrinalini View Post
    That might be a bit of an exaggeration. Alissa's jumps are low, she lips, her loop is poor and she is without a 3-3. Even when she hits her jumps, she doesn't get a lot of +GOEs for them. It's just that nearly everything else about her skating is stellar, and that's what carries her through.

    However, I think it's without a doubt that if everyone were to go clean at Worlds, Alissa wouldn't stand a chance against the big guns. I'd include Mirai in the latter group.
    I agree with this. I think Alissa is more of a 6.0 skater. She is very similar to Sasha but I think if Sasha were competing well she wouldn't fair as well in international competition due to the quality of her jumps.

  6. #86
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    Czisny is not Cohen, not even close. Czisny possibly has even better spins, and can almost match in spirals. Neither have great skating skills or speed. However Cohen's jumps when she lands them are better, her footwork is much better, and Cohen gets PCS that were often the highest in the World which Czisny isnt even close to. Cohen often attempted 7 triples a program, Czisny does 5. Czisny wouldnt be on the podium at a Worlds even going clean unless some of the others made mistakes too, although the field this year is weaker so far so who knows.

    And even a clean Cohen being unbeatable is a myth even in her prime. She skated cleanly at 2002 Nationals and lost soundly to Kwan. She skated cleanly in the qualifying round of the 2003 Worlds and was beaten by Kwan and Sokolova. She didnt skate totally clean at the 2005 Worlds but stayed on her feet and rotated everything in both programs and lost soundly to Slutskaya who botched 2 elements in her short program and lost credit for a repeated triple in the long.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Czisny is not Cohen, not even close. Czisny possibly has even better spins, and can almost match in spirals. Neither have great skating skills or speed. However Cohen's jumps when she lands them are better, her footwork is much better, and Cohen gets PCS that were often the highest in the World which Czisny isnt even close to. Cohen often attempted 7 triples a program, Czisny does 5. Czisny wouldnt be on the podium at a Worlds even going clean unless some of the others made mistakes too, although the field this year is weaker so far so who knows.
    Czisny's been attempting 6 triples in her LP for the last 2 seasons. Landing 6 is a different story though.

  8. #88

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    For all the talk of Sasha's inconsistency, she was a far more consistent skater than Czisny. The two simply cannot be compared. Sasha is a multiple time world medalist, her Olympic placements were 4th and Silver, there's not a year she entered Senior Nationals and didn't medal (except for last year,but she still clobbered Czisny ). Sasha is inconsistent relative to her biggest rivals, Irina and Michelle. But compared to Czisny, she might as well be Yags or Plush.


    I do think Czisny is a better spinner, I remember once Sasha was watching her spin and said to her coach 'I need to spin like that'. But Sasha is the far better competitor.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyBut View Post
    I do think Czisny is a better spinner, I remember once Sasha was watching her spin and said to her coach 'I need to spin like that'. But Sasha is the far better competitor.
    I think that quote is telling of the quality of Alissa's spins, when you consider how good Sasha's spins were

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Czisny is not Cohen, not even close. Czisny possibly has even better spins, and can almost match in spirals. Neither have great skating skills or speed. However Cohen's jumps when she lands them are better, her footwork is much better, and Cohen gets PCS that were often the highest in the World which Czisny isnt even close to.
    LOL, it's all the contrary, IMO !

  11. #91
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    And even when Czisny skates clean she wont neccessarily do that great. At Skate Canada last year she had a clean short and ended up 7 points adrift of Rochette with the same jumps. Imagine that sort of thing ever happening to a prime Sasha (I mean 2004-2006, not talking about 2010 Sasha). At Worlds in 2009 her LP was almost clean IIRC yet since she only was planning 5 triples to start with, and her PCS werent going to stand out in a global field unless she were spectacular, she didnt do that well even in that program.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    LOL, it's all the contrary, IMO !
    Sasha's footwork sequence in Turin got over 2 points in GOE with some +3s. It was the difference in her winning the silver over Slutskaya that night by less than 2 points. Czisny's footwork isnt even noticeable.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Sasha's footwork sequence in Turin got over 2 points in GOE with some +3s. It was the difference in her winning the silver over Slutskaya that night by less than 2 points. Czisny's footwork isnt even noticeable.
    Sasha's footworks were really poor. I never understood how she scored that high. No edges, very small. Because she was so slow, she could do a lot of moves in her fw, that's about it.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Czisny is not Cohen, not even close. Czisny possibly has even better spins, and can almost match in spirals. Neither have great skating skills or speed. However Cohen's jumps when she lands them are better, her footwork is much better, and Cohen gets PCS that were often the highest in the World which Czisny isnt even close to. Cohen often attempted 7 triples a program, Czisny does 5. Czisny wouldnt be on the podium at a Worlds even going clean unless some of the others made mistakes too, although the field this year is weaker so far so who knows.

    And even a clean Cohen being unbeatable is a myth even in her prime. She skated cleanly at 2002 Nationals and lost soundly to Kwan. She skated cleanly in the qualifying round of the 2003 Worlds and was beaten by Kwan and Sokolova. She didnt skate totally clean at the 2005 Worlds but stayed on her feet and rotated everything in both programs and lost soundly to Slutskaya who botched 2 elements in her short program and lost credit for a repeated triple in the long.
    This is true most of the time, but Czisny's PCS were huge at SC this season, where she got 61+ for PCS in the LP, which I think is the highest put up by a lady so far this season. So maybe if she ever managed to skate clean, her PCS would consistently be really high.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    .....So maybe if she ever managed to skate clean...


    This is something I'd love to see, but

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post


    This is something I'd love to see, but
    I know but, I mean, look what is happening to Tomas this season! If he can do it, then maybe Alissa can too! Now I know he has better jump technique than Alissa but he used to have huge stamina problems, which he was able to fix over the course of a few months due to a new training style.

  17. #97
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    I think the different between Cohen and Cizney is the amount of mistake they make. Cohen usually make one major (fall or stepout) or minor (a wobble here and there) and managed to stay on her feet. Cizney on the other hand, the closest clean skate maybe be 4 triples and poping or doubling jump(s). When she bombs, its a train wreak with fall after fall.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    This is true most of the time, but Czisny's PCS were huge at SC this season, where she got 61+ for PCS in the LP, which I think is the highest put up by a lady so far this season. So maybe if she ever managed to skate clean, her PCS would consistently be really high.
    That is only because of how weak the womens field is now. The same reason a past her prime Miki Ando has been the skater to beat on the grand prix. It has truly been a joke. I guess I should remember to keep in mind how depleted the field is now to normal when commenting, but with Kim back for Worlds and hopefully some others getting over their injuries it wont likely stay this way.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    That is only because of how weak the womens field is now. The same reason a past her prime Miki Ando has been the skater to beat on the grand prix. It has truly been a joke. I guess I should remember to keep in mind how depleted the field is now to normal when commenting, but with Kim back for Worlds and hopefully some others getting over their injuries it wont likely stay this way.
    Fair point. The whole Miki thing is especially ridiculous because she's only been attempting 5 triples and no 3-3s in her FS so far this season. It would be one thing if Miki was winning everything and skating FS with 7 triples and 3lz-3lo and 2a-3t, but she's not.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    First of all, thanks for reading my posts. At least I'm not ignored

    I'm not a skating insider, official, etc. just a schmuck that likes skating and posts his opinions on a message board, so a lot of what I post are opinions based on hunches from armchair observation.

    'reward' was probably the wrong term.

    In this particular example, I meant that in a close competition where Czisny and Flatt were vying for the 2d Worlds spot [for the sake of argument, let's say that Nagasu is a lock in 1st and Wagner buried herself in the SP] and Czisny completed 4 triples [usual fall, flub, bad step out on the rest] while Rachael completed 6 triples [perhaps a ur but otherwise as inspired as she can be], I agreed with another poster that they would be 'even' in the eyes of the judges. Now, it wouldn't be a collusion or anything else on the part of the judges. But my hunch is a majority of the judges individually would come to the deciding factor that Rachael would best represent the US at Worlds, better chance at getting 3 spots for 2012 than a volatile Czisny which is maybe a goal, perhaps even snag a bronze, etc. and with that in the back of her mind, 'reward' her with a team spot. [But not 'reward', simply put her ahead of Czisny; that term was wrong]. They could individually do that by maybe giving her slightly higher than normal PCS, GOE, etc.

    I don't know - but it seems that many judges know each other and think in the same manner, and don't necessarily have to openly collude, conspire, to come to certain same conclusions about what is best for the US [whom they represent] in terms of who will be the better competitor at Worlds, Olympics, etc. They know past results and watch practices. In summary - in a very close competition, those factors might sway a majority of judges

    It's all an opinion, a hunch
    I appreciate the thoughtful reply.
    You make some good points.
    I'm sure there is much that goes on outside of and around the typical competiton that could raise suspicion.

    Being human, the judges do have interpretive bias with regard to the scoring and rules that is independent of who the skater(s) is/are .......as do referees, judges, umpires, etc. in every other sport.
    (No two umpires see the strike zone exactly the same way, despite how clearly it is described in the rules of baseball.)

    This interpretive bias will often favor one athlete/skater over another in some small way or another in the current moment or competition.

    If a judge mentally (and then actually) inflates a skater's score based on their personal view of who "best" represents the U.S. in upcoming competitions,
    then I guess that's between the judge and their own conscience and we would would never know unless they openly admitted it.


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