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  1. #61

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    Well, it means that the existing summer competitions won't be used as a the basis for the Senior B. Other clubs may have to step up, if it's more in the interest of their skaters.

    What would the considerations be in Canada, or would "making money for the host club" trump all interests there as well?

  2. #62

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    Does a senior B event need an arena, or would a local rink with bleacher seating for a couple thousand suffice? Does it need a second ice surface for practices?

    Does the venue have to be able to support television coverage?

    Is anyone here interested in working with their local club as a preliminary LOC to research ice availability, hotel and transportation needs, etc.?

  3. #63

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    No reason why it couldn't be held in a small venue --if it was in the summer it could even be held in a college rink -- University of Denver has a gorgeous one.

  4. #64

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    Didn't someone suggest holding it simultaneously with an existing invitational? Is that feasible? That way, the clubs still make money.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    They need to have someone committed to the YES answer (coaches, skaters) and not the NO answer (USFS) if they want to get it done. I suggest they ask Marina Zoueva about helping to get it done.
    Why Marina? She helps pay for the judges ?
    I think LP dance competition had invited international judges in the last couple years. The other summer dance competition is Pike Peak in Colorado. Pairs is going to be tough since very limited teams.

  6. #66

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    Why Marina? Because Marina has been heard in several venues complaining about the lack of Senior B competitions in North America.

    Liberty has 3 rinks, and one of them, the one that has the most seating, is not that utilized during the competition. I would think you could fit a Senior B in it.

    USFS should consider contributing to the travel expenses of the judges/tech folk extra that would have to be imported. It's got to be cheaper to move one judge than 10 skaters (5 teams), for example.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    Didn't someone suggest holding it simultaneously with an existing invitational? Is that feasible? That way, the clubs still make money.
    This is how the North American Challenge Skate (NACS) program worked in the US and Canada for many years, and I think it might still be the most feasible way to get a Senior B hosted in the US.

    BTW, I didn't mean to give the impression that the majority of US clubs are making tons of money from their own competitions. I don't believe this is the case, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Does a senior B event need an arena, or would a local rink with bleacher seating for a couple thousand suffice? Does it need a second ice surface for practices?
    I assume a second ice surface would be helpful (especially if the Senior B takes place simultaneously with a club comp.) and that bleacher seating would suffice.

    Does the venue have to be able to support television coverage?
    Probably not. Which Senior Bs are televised now? A live webcast would be great, though!
    Last edited by Sylvia; 12-13-2010 at 11:57 PM.

  8. #68

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    How many kids participate at Liberty? And what is the fee per kid?

    They make enough from the entrants that no admission is charged.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    This is how the North American Challenge Skate (NACS) program worked in the US and Canada for many years, and I think it might still be the most feasible way to get a Senior B hosted in the US.

    I assume a second ice surface would be helpful (especially if the Senior B takes place simultaneously with a club comp.) and that bleacher seating would suffice.
    I think it would absolutely be necessary if it's simultanous with a club comp.

    Probably not. Which Senior Bs are televised now? A live webcast would be great, though!
    I know some of the European ones have sometimes been televised in Europe. Eurosport showed Nebelhorn a few times in the mid-90s. Is there still some German coverage, some recent years if not this year?

    This looks like some Finnish coverage of this year's Finlandia?

    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    How many kids participate at Liberty? And what is the fee per kid?
    Hundreds. Over a hundred intermediate ladies SPs, although some of those were juveniles "skating up."

    I think it was a little over $100 per program, separate entry fees for short and long. Probably less for the lower-level 6.0 events.

    It also takes a lot of volunteer hours. How many more volunteers would be needed to arrange the international events? Would local fans be eager to volunteer?

    Would sweepers be needed for the international events? If the kids are also competing in the club comp on the other rink, that would add an extra step of coordinating schedules.

    OK, so this is a senior B event, which means it has to be sanctioned by the ISU.

    Would the international event be separate from the open senior event that's part of the club comp? The international in the US or Canada would have a maximum of X US or Canadian participants, plus up to Y entries representing any other country, as long as the skaters' federations submit their names?

    After the X home and Y foreign slots are taken, anyone who didn't get the nod from their federation can enter the club event and pay their own way? Any 13-year-olds with proper test credentials could enter the club event but not the international? Ditto for individuals or pairs currently sitting out a season to change nationality?

    So would it be better to hold this in conjunction with a smaller club competition that doesn't get many senior entries to begin with?

    Or would the ISU be willing to sanction something like Liberty that already has a large field of mostly domestic entrants and occasional entries who aren't eligible for international senior competition, and just encourage more foreign skaters to enter along with a large number of home country skaters good and bad, and give ranking points for top placements?

    What if there are more than 30 senior ladies (or senior men, for that matter, if you just added more international entries to Liberty as it currently exists)? Would initial rounds be allowed? Or make the judges have to sit through 40 or 50 short programs, most of them bad? Could cuts be made before the freeskate?

    All issues to be considered. I don't know what the best answers would be.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    You're missing the point Ziggy. Right now, Canadian teams travel to Indy on their own money. If this became "B" event, the federations would be on the hook for paying for the skaters.
    The federations are not obliged to pay the expenses of the skaters who are taking part in international events. The payment does go through the federation, of course, but nothing is stopping a federation (unless it's some national law) to request the skater to pay for that opportunity.

    Some (I would guess most) federations pay the skaters' expenses, some aren't able to or only pay the costs of their best skaters. There are skaters competing at European B-Internationals who are doing this out of their own pocket.

    On a related note, I understand that USFS and SC have a limited budget and that's why their skaters only appear at some B-Internationals.

    But what I don't understand is why after those paid up spots are filled, the rest isn't opened up to any skaters who wish to participate and are able to pay themselves?

  11. #71

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    I wonder if you could fund a US Senior B by dropping about half of the US entries to the other Senior Bs the US sends athletes to these days, and using the savings to fund judges for a senior B? Most elite skaters pay to participate in one or more summer comps right now -- a late summer comp that was a Senior B with ISU ranking points and SB possibilities (as well as ISU qualifying scores) ought to be reasonably attractive.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Some (I would guess most) federations pay the skaters' expenses, some aren't able to or only pay the costs of their best skaters. There are skaters competing at European B-Internationals who are doing this out of their own pocket.
    I appreciate what you're saying Ziggy, but such a system in North America, where skaters are being funded to attend international events, has come under criticism in the past with Canadian international assignments being hotly contested. It was suggested that skaters who paid their own way were "buying a spot" on the team that should have gone to more deserving skaters whose parents couldn't or wouldn't pay their way.

    The bitching that goes on around who got sent where and why is just at times.

  13. #73

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    Then it's easy: stop funding all of them and have a senior B (with a Junior B side by side with it, Novice too, if you like). Everyone will have to pay their travel expenses, but also they won't be super great. You could have as an additional prize that the top finishers at the event would qualify for funding to Senior/Junior B's abroad. Hold it in mid July or early August.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Then it's easy: stop funding all of them and have a senior B (with a Junior B side by side with it, Novice too, if you like). Everyone will have to pay their travel expenses, but also they won't be super great. You could have as an additional prize that the top finishers at the event would qualify for funding to Senior/Junior B's abroad. Hold it in mid July or early August.
    So the US and Canada should each have a senior B event and not fund any of their skaters who attend them?

    Nor will the USFSA fund US skaters who choose to attend the Canadian event nor Skate Canada fund Canadian skaters who choose to attend the US event. Maybe they could at least coordinate so they can have one in the east and one in the west each year so most skaters would be able to find an event within 1500 miles of their home base.

    Skaters from outside North America (and skaters from Mexico) would also be encouraged to attend these events for potential senior B points. Obviously if they're training in North America these events might be more attractive than European B events. It would be up to each federation to decide to fund their skaters' participation or not. The host country doesn't care who pays for the plane tickets, or even the entry fees as long as the checks don't bounce.

    But that still doesn't answer the question:
    Will the US choose or limit the number of US skaters allowed to enter this event (at their own expense)?

    Or can any US senior skater pay their way into this international? Even a skater who finished last at regionals and can't rotate a double axel much less any triples?

    How about skaters who aren't eligible to compete in senior internationals (e.g., too young)? Will the ISU agree to sanction the event if 12- or 13-year-olds are allowed to enter?

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    Isn't Skate Quebec a senior B international?

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Isn't Skate Quebec a senior B international?
    Do you mean the Quebec Summer Championships? In any case there is no Senior B International event in North America at present.

    There is an agreement between Skate Canada and the USFSA that results from certain competitions will be considered in the selection of skaters for Junior GP and Senior B assignments and that skaters can elect to skate at any of these competitions, regardless of which country they're held in. The QSC's is one of those events as is Liberty, Thornhill, Silicon Valley Open, Detroit, Minto, the Cranberry Open, and a few others.

  17. #77

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    Do the lower level European Senior B's have entrance requirements? Certainly the ISU docs don't suggest them. And the fact that Khokhlova & Andreev entered at Golden Spin leads me to believe there are none really, for it, except possibly 1. money 2. some kind of cachet from the federation they represent?

    However, there are a lot of skaters in the US:

    If there are too many kids wishing to enter a Senior B, then you could have them qualify using a choice of prior year's scores or a score at the summer competitions that run early this year (say Broadmoor & Liberty, etc. and early Canadian comps) for a new team/skater to acquire a minimum total score high enough to qualify for a North American Senior B. That would be fair. There are quite a few of those competitions, and they are distributed around the country.

    Right now, if you can pay the entry price, and have passed your test requirements for Senior, you can skate at Liberty. Nothing would be different.

    Then if USFSA wants to fund skaters to compete abroad as well, they can. However, looking at Senior B 's abroad, often they don't send anyone, which disadvantages American skaters as to opportunities for getting early input.

    For example, there are no Americans in singles at Golden Spin, NRW Dance or the NRW Trophy. Back in the day when ABC paid out the big bucks and USFSA had lots of money, there were Americans at these little comps; not so these days.
    Last edited by DORISPULASKI; 12-14-2010 at 06:51 PM.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Then if USFSA wants to fund skaters to compete abroad as well, they can. However, looking at Senior B 's abroad, often they don't send anyone, which disadvantages American skaters.

    For example, there are no Americans in singles at Golden Spin. Back in the day when ABC paid out the big bucks, there were Americans at all these little comps; not so these days.
    The same is true of Canada. We used to send skaters to all of the events: Triglav, Finlandia, Nebelhorn, Golden Spin, Karl Schlaffer. Now we send them to Nebelhorn and occasionally Finlandia. So between the loss of the "B" competitions for both seniors and juniors, and the North American Challenge for Juniors and Novice skaters, Canada is not using development comps like they did 10 years ago and I don't think that's a good thing, especially for our women, who need to be competing against skaters with all of their triples on a regular basis.

  19. #79

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    Dragonlady, I think you're right. And it's also important for the American girls to get into comps early where they will learn they need more power in their skating, need to rotate their jumps, and need to not flutz/lip.

    And if you look at what Americans are sent, we sent to Finlandia and Nebelhorn:

    Nebelhorn:
    Melissa Bulanhagui
    Armin Mahbanoozadeh
    Jason Wong
    Donlan & Speroff
    Zhang & Toth
    Shibutanis
    Kriengkrairut/Giuletti-Schmitt

    Finlandia
    Amanda Dobbs
    Jonathan Cassar
    Grant Hochstein
    Hubbell & Hubbell

    Nepala
    No one

    NRW Trophy & Dance
    No one

    Golden Spin
    No singles; 2 pairs

    Note the fact that only 2 ladies were sent at all, and they're the ones that need the input most.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post

    Some (I would guess most) federations pay the skaters' expenses, some aren't able to or only pay the costs of their best skaters. There are skaters competing at European B-Internationals who are doing this out of their own pocket.
    European B-Internationals are almost always at the individual skaters' expense! I only know of a handful of skaters who have their expenses paid by their federation, it is far from the norm!

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