Why are there no Senior B competitions in North America?

[DORISPULASKI]

Can you give any examples of any current U.S. or Canadian pairs or dance couples who you believe have been unfairly denied the opportunity to break into the international scene? The USFSA and Skate Canada do, in fact, send quite a few of their lower-ranked seniors to Senior B's already.

The USFSA sent a senior dance couple to Cup of Nice this season, and their overall score was 81.24.

http://www.nice-baie-des-anges.fr/im...l/CAT006RS.HTM

If that's the level of couples who do get sent to Senior B's, it's hard to the "need" to create additional competitions for those who don't.

It happens often in pairs & dance that a couple breaks up and a brand new couple forms. Often, because both are top performers by themselves, they debut at Nationals at 4th or higher.

This year, off the top of my head, in the US, Marley & Brubaker, even if they finished high enough at Nationals to qualify for 4CC'S or Worlds, couldn't go this year.

In past years, the following new teams won medals and would not have been able to go to Worlds or 4CC's without taking a trip to Europe first, wasting money they probably did not have since they were new teams (usually the 4th place couple gets a 4CC's berth since at least one of the top 3 won't go:

Weaver & Poje
Silverstein & Meara
Steigler & Magerovski (debuted in 4th)
Navarro & Bommentre (debuted in 4th)
Gregory & Petukhov
Semanick & Kravette
Semanick & Gregory
Blumberg & Siebert finished 3rd in their first year at US championships, if one is to believe wikipedia
Rene Roca and James Yorke finished 4th in their debut year, and if there had been 4CC's then, couldn't have gone.


Probably there are others; I just don't remember them.

[Squibble]

This year, off the top of my head, in the US, Marley & Brubaker, even if they finished high enough at Nationals to qualify for 4CC'S or Worlds, couldn't go this year.

They can earn a qualifying score at the Bavarian Open (between Nationals and Four Continents) or Mont Blanc or the International Challenge Cup (both of which are between Four Continents and Worlds). I expect these three competitions to become increasingly successful at drawing high-quality entries because teams such as Marley & Brubaker, Bonheur & Canac, Mukhortova & Blanchard, Volosozhar & Trankov, and Khokhlova & Andreev will want the opportunity to gain a qualifying score to compete at ISU Championships.

In your original post, you said:

Lord knows, there are enough summer competitions here and there. Is the problem getting the sponsoring clubs/federations/etc to agree on one site?

What are the bars to getting one?

I'd particularly like to see an ISU sanctioned summer competitions here in dance and pairs.

In 2010, a summer Senior B competition wouldn't have done Marley & Brubaker any good. They didn't even team up until August, and judging from the fact they haven't entered any Senior B's scheduled before Nationals, they probably don't feel they either need or are ready for one yet.

[DORISPULASKI]

This is true-but a summer competition with real ISU technical committee would have done a lot of good for teams just about to compete in the new short dance.

And just because there might be a summer Senior B, it doesn't preclude having a winter Senior B in North American specifically aimed at teams that haven't yet had ISU qualifying scores but did really well at Regionals/Sectionals/Challenge.

And next year's short dance will most likely have a different CD for the pattern dance. Similar prep will be desirable.

When Pechalat and Bourzat got an unpleasant surprise at Nebelhorn, they were able to pick up 2 other Senior B's prior to debuting at Cup of China, and thus had their levels up to the best they could. Indeed, everyone is praising their devotion to their preparation. No North American team could have done something like that-3 trips to Europe would be very unfeasible.

And then there's the matter of the Season's Bonus from the ISU-the Senior B points can determine what the skaters win there.

Faiella & Scali arrived at CoC and got more surprises than just their wardrobe problems. D&W (who wouldn't have been able to take advantage of a Senior B, most likely, due to their SOI involvement and other projects also got an unpleasant surprise at NHK on their Golden Waltz levels.

It would be nice for internationally active US (and Canadian and skaters from other countries training in the US) to be able to get early input without having to spring for a trip to Europe. Even if money is no object, the time and the jet lag are great for training either.

[Tak]

It would be nice for internationally active US (and Canadian and skaters from other countries training in the US) to be able to get early input without having to spring for a trip to Europe. Even if money is no object, the time and the jet lag are great for training either.

Well I agree with this - and I'd say the same thing for Asia. If these competitions are going to have an impact on the season, then ALL skaters from ALL countries should have reasonable access to them. Otherwise, it seems like the ISU is putting the emphasis on European skaters and favoring them over skaters who are far away.

[Ziggy]

There are three federations in North America, not two.

I don't understand at all why none of them hold at least one competition, other than the summer ones.

European skaters definitely wouldn't come because the costs are so high.

But Northern American skaters probably would, the European skaters who train in North America probably would (way cheaper for them than flying back to Europe) and correct me if I'm wrong but for some Asian countries NA is closer than Europe, no?

[Tak]

correct me if I'm wrong but for some Asian countries NA is closer than Europe, no?

Depends on where in NA - along the Pacific coast I think it's certainly cheaper [and maybe closer - it's about 11 hours flight], but further inland or east coast, I think no. It's about the same [course, it depends on exactly where in Europe too].

[hockeyplayer2]

From what I have read, Pajardi/Caruso and Aronow/Pirogov no longer together-tho' I may be wrong. I believe Stephano Caruso is skating w/Tanja Kolbe (tho' don't know where they train), and Aronow is skating w/Donohue (may be in Canton?)
It would be wonderful to expose more SR teams (specifically Pairs and Dance) to competition for the experience. I wonder if federations would allow teams to go if they were willing to pay their own way? If competitions were held in NA, wouldn't be too costly for most teams-probably about the cost of Lake Placid or Liberty, I would think.

[geoskate]

Is the reason purely budgetary or something else, I wonder?

(Sylvia was asking what Skate Canada's reason was for not using Senior B's other than Nebelhorn).

I hope it's budgetary. If it's a strategy decision, then I don't think it's very wise. For one thing, many top-level Canadian skaters would benefit from additional international competitive experience, as I think is demonstrated by the performances of about half the Canadian skaters on the Grand Prix circuit this year. Those skaters simply didn't skate up to their capabilities, and some of that is probably due to lack of competitive experience IMO. Secondly, there are a reasonable number of Canadian skaters who aren't yet up to the levels required for the Grand Prix circuit but are still quite good. Some of them never will be at the Grand Prix level, but some of them just need time and some incentive to perservere until they reach that level. I think Senior B assignments can help provide that short-term incentive.

If it is a budgetary reason, Senior B's in North America would definitely help.

[Jayar]

The minimum qualifying score is insane. If a team beats a team who has met the qualification at their nationals, that new team (or skater) should be able to go.

[Ziggy]

(Sylvia was asking what Skate Canada's reason was for not using Senior B's other than Nebelhorn).

I hope it's budgetary. If it's a strategy decision, then I don't think it's very wise. For one thing, many top-level Canadian skaters would benefit from additional international competitive experience, as I think is demonstrated by the performances of about half the Canadian skaters on the Grand Prix circuit this year. Those skaters simply didn't skate up to their capabilities, and some of that is probably due to lack of competitive experience IMO. Secondly, there are a reasonable number of Canadian skaters who aren't yet up to the levels required for the Grand Prix circuit but are still quite good. Some of them never will be at the Grand Prix level, but some of them just need time and some incentive to perservere until they reach that level. I think Senior B assignments can help provide that short-term incentive.

If it is a budgetary reason, Senior B's in North America would definitely help.

I totally agree with everything you've said.

And I certainly hope that Skate Canada just doesn't have enough money to send skaters to more events.

Although it seems really weird. Out of all the federations out there, you'd imagine they'd be able to afford it...

[DORISPULASKI]

Yes, I would think they could afford it myself.

And it isn't like clubs don't hold competitions.

Both LPIDC and Liberty are huge, especially Liberty.

If the Czech Fed can hold an ISU sanctioned Senior B, I don't see why the Canadian or the American Fed can't.

And, in fact, I think there should be 2 in each region (one in summer and one after regionals/sectionals).

At the very, very least, I'd like to see a dance comp in Detroit and one in PA/Del area. Maybe one at Broadmoor.

In Canada, one in Quebec, one in Ontario and one in BC.

[Zemgirl]

When Pechalat and Bourzat got an unpleasant surprise at Nebelhorn, they were able to pick up 2 other Senior B's prior to debuting at Cup of China, and thus had their levels up to the best they could. Indeed, everyone is praising their devotion to their preparation. No North American team could have done something like that-3 trips to Europe would be very unfeasible.

IIRC, their only other senior B was Finlandia, which had been on their agenda all along, so it wasn't a reaction to Nebelhorn. French Masters is a national event and required for all French skaters, mostly for getting input from the Federation.

P/B are based in Moscow now, so it's not exactly a short hop to some European events. They, and Zhulin, were simply smart about the preparation and realized that with the changes this season, more feedback would do them good, and planned accordingly. North American skaters may find it difficult to do two senior Bs in Europe, but they have summer competitions and can certainly make the trip for one event, as D/W did last year.

In hindsight I think D/W would have been better served by doing less shows and spending more time on preparing for the season, but at least they were assigned to the first GP and got their feedback early.

That having been said, I think senior Bs in NA and Asia would be a good idea.

[DORISPULASKI]

The article I read about them said 3 competitions...but perhaps the 3rd was French Masters, in which case, it wasn't a Senior B.

[alilou]

And I certainly hope that Skate Canada just doesn't have enough money to send skaters to more events.

Although it seems really weird. Out of all the federations out there, you'd imagine they'd be able to afford it...

Don't know why you think SC would be so rich. They are the only NGB to actually buy the TV rights from the ISU so we can get to see some skating on TV in Cda. CTV didn't want anything to do with it and CBC can't afford it (being 70 million in debt). I'm guessing that SC buys air time from CBC and then rounds up the advertising themselves. Debbie Wilkes has done an incredible job of getting, and maintaining, sponsorship from various companies, and then there's income from membership of course, but I seriously doubt SC is rolling in money at all.

[DORISPULASKI]

Yes, and USFSA got involved with its rather ill starred venture with MLB and icenetwork.

Nonetheless, I strongly suspect they have more money than the Czechs.

And how much money would be involved.

Let's take a competition like Indy Pairs-it's already true that both Canadian and American pairs compete there, plus a number of international pairs that train in the US. It's in a nice central location for the continent.

How much would it cost to make this an ISU Senior B vs. just a club competition?

And who would have to pony up?

[Dragonlady]

I don't understand at all why none of them hold at least one competition, other than the summer ones.

European skaters definitely wouldn't come because the costs are so high.

But Northern American skaters probably would, the European skaters who train in North America probably would (way cheaper for them than flying back to Europe) and correct me if I'm wrong but for some Asian countries NA is closer than Europe, no?

I would much rather restore the North American Challenges for Novice and Junior skaters than I would see the money spent on Senior B events. I think that the Canadian development program in particular has suffered from the loss of these events, especially with the Ladies.

It was said that the NAC's were axed because of money issues. I'd even contribute to bringing them back. One only has to look at the list of past winners to see their value.

[Capella]

Skate Canada didn't even use all its spots at JGP events! What a waste! Sounds like Slipchuk et al are more interested in "stars" than those off the potential-Olympic-medalists short list.

I would love to see LPIDC become a Senior B event. Obviously skaters from the U.S. and Canada have competed over the years, and sometimes non-NA teams do, too, if they train in NA (or are North American and compete for another country).

I've never been to Oberstdorf. Is it easier to get there than to Lake Placid? When Skate America was there last year, Team Yu-Na drove from Canada. And the location certainly didn't seem to hurt the number of Korean fans and media who made the trip. If the Bs are located in smaller, Alpine-y areas, chances are you are not going to be able to just take a shuttle from the airport and be at the arena in 5 minutes.

[Dragonlady]

The Korean fans came by bus from New York, and left right after the women finished. Lake Placid is not easy to get to.

[rhumba]

Skate Canada didn't even use all its spots at JGP events! What a waste! Sounds like Slipchuk et al are more interested in "stars" than those off the potential-Olympic-medalists short list.

I would love to see LPIDC become a Senior B event. Obviously skaters from the U.S. and Canada have competed over the years, and sometimes non-NA teams do, too, if they train in NA (or are North American and compete for another country).

I've never been to Oberstdorf. Is it easier to get there than to Lake Placid? When Skate America was there last year, Team Yu-Na drove from Canada. And the location certainly didn't seem to hurt the number of Korean fans and media who made the trip. If the Bs are located in smaller, Alpine-y areas, chances are you are not going to be able to just take a shuttle from the airport and be at the arena in 5 minutes.

Most European countries are accessible by trains. Going to LP is quite difficult if you do not have a car.

[Jayar]

Most European countries are accessible by trains. Going to LP is quite difficult if you do not have a car.

You could always just borrow one while you are in town.