Why are there no Senior B competitions in North America?

[Sylvia]

Nebelhorn:
Melissa Bulanhagui
Armin Mahbanoozadeh
Jason Wong
Donlan & Speroff
Zhang & Toth
Shibutanis
Kriengkrairut/Giuletti-Schmitt

Ashley Wagner was also assigned to Nebelhorn but was a late withdrawal. Castelli/Shnapir were originally assigned as well, but were replaced by Donlan/Speroff after C/S were given Skate America.

Ice Challenge in Graz, Austria: Douglas Razzano; Vise/Baldwin & Davis/Leftheris in pairs.

6 different pairs were sent out, only one of which ended up on the Grand Prix (Zhang/Toth). It appears the focus was on giving Senior B international opportunities to US pairs this fall.

[DORISPULASKI]

Yes, and there might be some other small comps with USA kids that I missed, but I think the point is clear. As a group, very few have the experience open to them, all because of people worrying about what someone else might get

A better solution would be to have more Senior B's, in areas where the kids could go without requiring support, because the travel expenses involved would be more modest. Like here in North America.

[Sylvia]

As a group, very few have the experience open to them, all because of people worrying about what someone else might get

Could you please clarify what you mean by this last part? TIA.

[Dragonlady]

Between January and September in 2010 there were:

Nesquik Cup in Torun, Poland for Junior and Novice skaters
Dragon Trophy in Slovenia - Junior and Novice Men's and Ladies
Triglav Trophy - Jesenice, Slovenia - Men's and Ladies - Senior, Junior and Novice
Nebelhorn - Obertsdorf, Germany - Senior
Ondrej Nepela Memorial - Bratislava, Slovakia - Senior Junior and Novice
Finlandia Trophy - Vantaa, Findland - Senior
Coupe de Nice - Nice, France - Senior, Junior and Novice
Tirnavia Ice Cup - Tranva, Slovakia - Junior and Novice
Skate Celje - Celje, Slovenia - Junior and Novice

Canada sent skaters to Nebelhorn. The US sent skaters to Nebelhorn, Triglav, Finlandia and Nice.

I note that there are a lot of entries from Japan and Korea in these minor events, especially amongst the Novice and Junior skaters.

[gkelly]

Do the lower level European Senior B's have entrance requirements? Certainly the ISU docs don't suggest them.

I've checked the announcements for some of the larger senior B events (Nebelhorn, Finlandia, Ondrej Nepela, Golden Spin). They do require proof of age and nationality/ISU clearance. Some of them outline rules for how many entries each federation is allowed. None of the above had more than 3 entries per event per country this year, including the host country.

Crystal Skate of Romania had five Romanian ladies entered. I haven't checked many other smaller events.

Which leads me to believe that it would not be acceptable for the US to say "Here's a competition that's open to any US skater with the proper US test credentials who pays the entry fee on time. Let's also open it to foreign skaters and get enough foreign officials on the panels so we can get it sanctioned by the ISU as a Senior B International that will count for world ranking points and minimum tech scores required for ISU championships.

I think they would have to limit the number of entries by country, including the host country, and not allow skaters who are too young or between countries. (Or, I suppose, a skater who had lost ISU eligibility, reinstated within the US, but was not reinstated by the ISU.)

So I think this senior B event would have to be a completely separate event from any normal club competition, even if it's held at the same venue during the same week.

And the US would need to come up with some method of deciding who to assign to that event.

Same way they decide who to send to foreign senior B events. It would just be less expensive for them, even if they pay the skaters' expenses and definitely if they do not.

If there are too many kids wishing to enter a Senior B,

If it were open to an unlimited number of skaters if only they pay their own way, you bet there would be.

But I think that won't be an option.
However, if there is a club competition held at the same time in the same place, it might attract more entrants who want to watch the international event and also compete in their own event while they're there.

[Sylvia]

The US sent skaters to Nebelhorn, Triglav, Finlandia and Nice.

No US skaters went to Triglav in the spring of 2010. Gardena Spring Trophy in April 2010 was the developmental international for 7 US skaters that competed at 2010 Nationals and had never competed abroad before (Samantha Cesario, Lindsay Davis, Jason Brown, Max Aaron, and TJ Yang in Junior; Nina Jiang and Yasmin Siraj in Novice -- 6 of these 7 debuted on the JGP this fall).

Nebelhorn, Finlandia, Ice Challenge and Golden Spin were the 4 Senior B comps for US skaters this fall. Coupe de Nice was the designated Collegiate international again this year (for the top singles finishers at US Collegiate Nationals in August; invited skaters pay their own way if they want to go).

[DORISPULASKI]

Sylvia, gkelly said there was a problem with people complaining that other skaters bought their way into overseas competition rather than having USFS pay for them, and that was unfair , so USFS would not allow such skaters to do that any more

Now I may well have misunderstood gkelly. But that's how I took it.

That's what I was referring to.

[gkelly]

Actually Dragonlady said that about Canadian skaters.

But I think there was some similar about the "young international program" in the US that allowed skaters at various levels to represent the US at overseas competitions at their own expense.

[Dragonlady]

Sylvia, gkelly said there was a problem with people complaining that other skaters bought their way into overseas competition rather than having USFS pay for them, and that was unfair , so USFS would not allow such skaters to do that any more

No, that was my post about Canadian skaters.

[DORISPULASKI]

My apologies to gkelly, then.

[Ziggy]

I appreciate what you're saying Ziggy, but such a system in North America, where skaters are being funded to attend international events, has come under criticism in the past with Canadian international assignments being hotly contested. It was suggested that skaters who paid their own way were "buying a spot" on the team that should have gone to more deserving skaters whose parents couldn't or wouldn't pay their way.

The bitching that goes on around who got sent where and why is just at times.

I understand your point but I do think it could work as long as the system would be totally transparent.

So a federation would say at the start of the season that our budget allows us to send X skaters/teams to international events. Skaters would be named, based on past/current results (if I remember correctly, USFS and SC name skaters to international events at the start of the season anyway).

After that choice was made, all the other spots would be made open to anybody who requests them.

Priority would go to skaters ranked higher nationally (some kind of system of working last Nationals results vs. results in summer comps I guess).

I don't really understand why USFS and SC don't do that. It wouldn't cost them anything and some skaters would get more experience and possibly world ranking points.

I understand that there would be a lot of bitching and some bad sentiment from those who can't afford it, but isn't it better than having the spots go to waste anyhow?

European B-Internationals are almost always at the individual skaters' expense! I only know of a handful of skaters who have their expenses paid by their federation, it is far from the norm!

Thanks for this info. I naively assumed that most skaters would have their expenses paid. :/

[Dragonlady]

I understand that there would be a lot of bitching and some bad sentiment from those who can't afford it, but isn't it better than having the spots go to waste anyhow?

You make a good point. There's already bitching and bad sentiment around the selection of some skaters who seem to get assignments based on where they train or who coaches them rather than how well they're skating.

It just seems somehow unfair that if we're giving out assignments, the less affluent kids get screwed over, yet again.

[Sylvia]

I just came across this positive hearsay info posted over at Golden Skate about potential Senior B competitions to be held in the US in the (near?) future: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post548618

[barbk]

Well, yeah! Like to see one on the left coast too.

[Jasmar]

The minimum qualifying score is insane. If a team beats a team who has met the qualification at their nationals, that new team (or skater) should be able to go.

Especially since COP or no, scoring is wildly inconsistent between competitions (and even events).

[danafan]

I just came across this positive hearsay info posted over at Golden Skate about potential Senior B competitions to be held in the US in the (near?) future: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post548618

I hope this comes to pass - it would be a great way for skaters to meet the minimum TES required for ISU championships who otherwise might not get international assignments.