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  1. #1

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    Gorshkova/Butikov - Realistically What are their Chances?

    I know this team doesnt get a lot of respect around here - but I think that is mostly because of their awful programs. Their choreography has gotten steadily worse year by year since they switched to seniors, culminating in this season's calamity

    But I dont think they're a bad team. In some ways they are really strong. They get phenomenal ice coverage on their twizzles - it looked pretty near to half the rink I dont think any other team comes close [do they?]. And they are expressive - far more so than Bob/Sol - and I think they could be interesting with better material.

    I saw them live at NHK a few years ago - when they had the Godfather FD - and I was surprised. They looked much better live than on TV - smoother, faster, more elegant and more connection. [They made some big mistakes, so ] But I was much more impressed with them than with Sam/Bates [who I liked better on TV].

    I'm wondering why they dont find a new coach or something - is it really hard in Russia to do that [like, do you need approval of the Federation or something?] I think K/N's old coaches could really create a program for them that would show off their strengths and grab the audience.

    Partly, this is selfish - I can't stand the thought of having to watch Bob/Sol for 4 years instead of something a lot more interesting.

    Does anyone think there is any chance for this team? What would they have to do to start moving up? Or are they hopeless and out of their depth at the top????

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    They were a pretty good junior team but they have shown no signs of ever being a top Senior team. A good question for them is if they could ever make it to Worlds for Russia, forget about ever being Russian #1 or winning a World medal.

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    It might be interesting to see what Svinin and Zhuk could do with them. Certainly, no one could give them a worse program than this year's FD. The SD isn't so bad, though; at least the music is good. The choreo is kind of boring.

    Riazanova & Tkachenko's SD score at TEB should give you some hope that someone will challenge Bobrova before Sochi for top Russian team. It was a fraction of a point lower than B&S at CoR.

    And Monko and Khaliavin are really tearing up the JGP circuit this year, although they strike me as a team more about power and being businesslike than anything else (but I like that : ) And they may be more exciting in public.

    And there's Pushkash and Guerreiro and Stepanova & Bukin, both of which are doing very well in juniors.

    So do not despair of Russian dance being confined to Bobrova.

    Or you could pray that Khokhlova and Andreev will be more than just a bad joke about the foolish choices people make when struck by a pretty face, and really develop into a world beating team. Downside (or upside, depending on your taste), there's no way to escape them having Zoueva choreography, so if you don't like Ms. Z's stuff, this team would not be for you.

    Actually, I like a lot of Zoueva's stuff, and I particularly like that in recent years, their teams are showing distinct on-ice personalities. One could not imagine V&M skating to the comedic version C&Z are doing of Caberet, or D&W choosing to do the baby Old Smoothies routine that the Shibutanis are skating to. I have hopes that Zoueva will give Khokhlova something equal to her fabulousness. Without doubt though, the lifts will be amazing.
    Last edited by DORISPULASKI; 11-27-2010 at 05:15 AM.

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    ^

    I find the omission of I&K very odd, esp. since you mentioned junior teams.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Riazanova & Tkachenko's SD score at TEB should give you some hope that someone will challenge Bobrova before Sochi for top Russian team. It was a fraction of a point lower than B&S at CoR.
    Yeah, I didn't realize that when I was commenting in the TEB FD thread about Russian Nationals. I guess Bobrovievs(TM?) aren't the lock I thought they were. I'm curious to see how R&T score in the FD. I still have to think B&S winning CoR and making the GPF is going to carry a lot of weight going into Russian Nats.

    As for the topic of G&B, I've always found his skating to be really jarring and hitchy, and both of them are just too stiff and unnatural in their presentation. Watching their attempts to interpret and dance to latin rhythms is just painfully awkward.

    They remind me a lot of Rubleva & Shefer before 2010... a lot of jerkiness that needed to be smoothed out. They need a total reinvention like R&S had in 2010, but need to have it happen earlier so they can salvage their career, unlike R&S.
    Last edited by casken; 11-27-2010 at 12:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudy_Gumdrops View Post
    ^

    I find the omission of I&K very odd, esp. since you mentioned junior teams.

    I was listing teams that he might not have thought of. It's hard to think I&K won't be on the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    It's hard to think I&K won't be on the team.
    I hope so... But with this scores for R/T and GPF for B/S... And Jana and Fedor will go to Nationals too... Anything can happen, and there are only 2 spots st Worlds for Russia

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Actually, I like a lot of Zoueva's stuff, and I particularly like that in recent years, their teams are showing distinct on-ice personalities. One could not imagine V&M skating to the comedic version C&Z are doing of Caberet, or D&W choosing to do the baby Old Smoothies routine that the Shibutanis are skating to. I have hopes that Zoueva will give Khokhlova something equal to her fabulousness. Without doubt though, the lifts will be amazing.
    Weird, because I CAN see V&M doing a Caberet-type number (their 08-09 OD had some comedic elements, though I doubt Scott would ever wear the makeup). And I CAN see D&W doing an Old Smoothies number as well. They have had exhibitions in the past that have had a light, quick-footed feel.

    As for G&B, I doubt they'll ever get out of Russia. She is not bad, but he is pretty weak IMO.

    I think the next 4 years will be a battle between B&S and I&K. I think I&K have more potential than B&S (both technically and artistically). As for Khok/Andreev, it will be interesting to see how they look and if they (at their ages) get any support from the Russian Fed.

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    Skating to a cha cha does nothing to make this team (esp him) look any more exciting. Watching him makes me think of Bobrova, actually. Being in seniors for a few years now, they need someone who can give them a fresh start, new material, and actually relate to the music (and each other). The criticisms from commentators and officials about their retro programs are quite alarming. Even if they manage to improve technically, they will be held down as long as they keep coming out with like that.

    Bobrova= bathroom break. I can forgive G/B for not being well packaged (like B/S), but Bobrova being the top team Russia currently has to offer just makes them more unwatchable for me. Her sense of musicality and just general performance ability is non-existent. Yes, they are not as polished and tidy, which is ok because they are relative young. But why do they keep getting programs that aren’t very good to start with? Their Fd is pretty much the same heavy and mindnumbing crap from last year…it does nothing but accentuate how boring and one-sided they look. Their skating always come across (to me at least) as the old and aging journeymen, not really talented, past their prime, and on the verge of retirement. But they are in reality quite young...which means we'll be seeing them for many years to come. sigh. I will say though, that parts of their SD does have its entertainment value (even for the wrong reasons.) Will they stay as Russia’s #1 for the entire quad? Heck non!!

    The younger Russian teams are all so talented in different areas- which makes it so much more exciting to watch.
    Last edited by Fallcolor; 11-27-2010 at 06:42 PM.

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    I would like to see what another coach could do with them.

    Because Tschaikovskaya clearly doesn't care any more and her open war with pretty much everybody important in Russian skating means her skaters are screwed.

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    Not to mention, Tschaikovskaya hasn't had much achievements with her students for quite some time now. I find it surprising and maybe ironic that she is the one responsible for G/B's programs, when she herself was complaining about the Domshabs, and in general the 'outdated' style of some of the Russian teams immediately after the Olympics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    I was listing teams that he might not have thought of. It's hard to think I&K won't be on the team.
    Oh, okay.

    It just seemed weird that I&K weren't on there, when practically every other decent Russian team was mentioned.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafter View Post
    Weird, because I CAN see V&M doing a Caberet-type number (their 08-09 OD had some comedic elements, though I doubt Scott would ever wear the makeup). And I CAN see D&W doing an Old Smoothies number as well. They have had exhibitions in the past that have had a light, quick-footed feel.
    I was going to say almost exactly the same thing - I think a lot [maybe not all] of the S/Z choreography is kind of interchangeable. Those Shib dances could BE a V/M routine, and I saw an exhibition by D/W to Beyond the Sea which had the same kind of vibe to it, so yes I could certainly see them doing it as well [not that I'd EVER want to ].

    And I can imagine V/M or D/W in Cabaret - though maybe it wouldnt be as schlocky if they did it [but that would be a good thing.]

    Conversely - C/Z actually DID a POTO program in juniors - and were very good in it. I could totally see them in this year's tango number, as well the SD to opera. In fact, IMO, either of those programs would suit C/Z BETTER than the ones they have. I think the problem with doing choreo for so many teams is that after a while they all start to look alike to some extent.

    Yet another reason I WISH Igor's teams would go outside for choreo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post
    Bobrovievs(TM?)
    Bobrovievzzzzzzzzz more like

    Honestly, however hard I try, it's just through their FD. They are just so as a couple.


    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post
    They remind me a lot of Rubleva & Shefer before 2010... a lot of jerkiness that needed to be smoothed out. They need a total reinvention like R&S had in 2010, but need to have it happen earlier so they can salvage their career, unlike R&S.
    Re G/B - Yes, I would like them to get some help before it's too late for them as well. I thought R/S really improved under Sv/Zhuk, so I have hopes for G/B IF they move to them - I would do it NOW - don't even wait for the season to end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    Skating to a cha cha does nothing to make this team (esp him) look any more exciting. Watching him makes me think of Bobrova, actually. Being in seniors for a few years now, they need someone who can give them a fresh start, new material, and actually relate to the music (and each other). The criticisms from commentators and officials about their retro programs are quite alarming. Even if they manage to improve technically, they will be held down as long as they keep coming out with like that.
    I'm glad they're getting criticism - any chance they'll actually LISTEN to it and go find another coach before it's too late? [preferably Sv/Zhuk - but I love, Love, LOVE their choreography ]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    Bobrovievzzzzzzzzz more like
    Honestly, however hard I try, it's just through their FD. They are just so as a couple.
    I *lurved* B&S when I first saw them in 2008 and thought they would be my faves by now, but they haven't quite improved at the rate I expected them to, and their programs have been a mixed bag.

    People would often say that she wasn't as good as him, but I never really saw it. However, over that past two seasons I'm starting to see it. He is really strong and reminds me a bit of Platov. While she is good, her skating comes off weaker than his and her presentation comes off as immature compared to his. The droopy eyes and her general styling don't help either.

    But my opinion is still generally positive about them as a team, even if their material is a bit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    I'm glad they're getting criticism - any chance they'll actually LISTEN to it and go find another coach before it's too late? [preferably Sv/Zhuk - but I love, Love, LOVE their choreography ]
    I wish they could do it, but will Svinin/Zhuk or other coaches want to have troubles with Tschaikovskaya? Especially when they have some promising junior teams. And when skaters left Tschaikovskaya in past they just faded away... I really don't see any chances for G/B

    I think I agree with everyone about B/S, they are my least favorite in Russian team. I prefer I/K, Riazanova/Tkachenko and Monko/Khalyavin, hope one of these teams (I/K, please!) will be Russian №1 in 2014. Though B/S are really good technically and have lovely lines, I think they need better choreography and style. But I still prefer them to teams like Crone/Poirier

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    They kind of remind me of Khokhlova and Novitski in later years.. I guess it's the gaudy programs and maybe a lack of emotional connection between partners on the ice? But, mostly the gaudy programs I think. lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post
    People would often say that she wasn't as good as him, but I never really saw it. However, over that past two seasons I'm starting to see it. He is really strong and reminds me a bit of Platov. While she is good, her skating comes off weaker than his and her presentation comes off as immature compared to his. The droopy eyes and her general styling don't help either.
    T. Belbin said last year she is stronger than him and hopes he can catch up to her level

    But anyways, I agree that generally this is a really good team, they both have like perfect techniques like all Russian ice dancers who get their basic training in Russia. I prefer Ryazanova but they're really different but what R&T really need is for their coach to play COP better, maximize all levels because they already hit almost all the right notes, just need to absorb senior COP better. But at least both these teams are ice dancers, they're step sequences are pure ice dance sequences which is real good.

    But back to thread title: I thought G&B could go to Linichuk and her husband to get the power and lifts and speed but the other potential fill teams are better off there, like R&T if they start stagnating under Gorshkov.

    Khokhlova&Andreev : Just really surprising if they ever made a World Championships...maybe 4-6th place at Nationals this yr. Oh Jana I'm sorry. She is too brilliant!!
    Last edited by piano18; 11-28-2010 at 07:50 PM.

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