U.S Nationals mens winner

[Nomad]

That was Abbott, my dear Nomad! Abbott! I'm asking about Weir (to whom judgejudy27 was referring).

Sorry. Evidently I skipped a post. Well, Weir coulda been a contenda 2004-2008. Except that he rarely did more than two jump combos in his LP in international competition and consequently gave a lot of gold medals to other guys.

[judgejudy27]

From 2004 to 2008 Weir won 4 grand prix events, medalled in 9 of the 10 grand prix events he was in, won a World bronze in 2008, was 4th at Worlds in 2005, and was 2nd after the short program at the 2008 Olympics although ultimately dropping to 5th. He definitely was a serious contender during that time, in a way Abbott has never yet established himself.

[Squibble]

Serious headcase, maybe. Seldom did a third combination in his LP, never did a clean quad in competition AFAIK, struggled to reach the top levels on his spins and steps, never managed to include choreography or transitions that would compensate for his TES shortcomings, tried to package himself as a Russophile even though his skating style was quintessentially American, and generally went down in the standings at major international competitions after the SP because his LP's were never good enough.

[judgejudy27]

So in the context of a discussion about Abbott, Weir is somehow a headcase. Umm ok Weir actually was the most consistent skater last season. He was the only one who did 2 clean programs at the Grand Prix final, was one of the only ones to do 2 clean programs at the Olympics, did 2 clean programs in his 2nd GP outing, almost did 2 clean programs at Nationals. Unfortunately he wasnt a major contender at that point anymore. Weir has underperformed in a variety of ways, but not to the extent of Abbott who has done nothing other than crash and burn hard in important events except for the 2010 Nationals and 09 GP final, and respectable but not outstanding showings at the 09 Nationals and 2010 Worlds.

[EricRohmer]

I expected Rippon to win Nationals this year prior to the grand prix just because I thought he was ready to take the next step in his career and since he is a better skater than Abbott who will never be a true elite on the world level.

I like Rippon. And he is beautiful skater.
But have you seen this two live?
Abbott is in a different league from Rippon (as Oda is in a different league from Rippon).

[Sylvia]

For judgejudy27, "better skater" usually means better competitor in the major international competitions (Worlds, Olympics). Although Rippon and Mroz are both still unproven in that regard.

Funny how that comparision did not hold true for you and others when comparing Evan to Abbott though.

I don't recall ever comparing Lysacek to Abbott? I can't speak for the others.

And you are right Rippon and Mroz are unproven in that regard. What we do know is Jeremy is hardly that strong in your new definition of better skater (World and Olympic showings). Rippon at his 1st Worlds missed matching Abbotts best placing in 4 combined World and Olympics by 1 spot.

Ah, but it's not "my new definition" -- it's my interpretation of your definition. If you meant that "Adam [not Jeremy] is hardly that strong...", I would point out that Rippon has won 3 of the 4 ISU Championships in which he has competed (Junior Worlds twice and Four Continents last season) and placing 6th at 2010 Worlds (5th in the FS) is a very respectable debut, IMO. However, Lysacek's bronze medal in his Worlds debut in 2005 is still the best showing of any recent U.S. man. ETA the recent Worlds debut placements:
Weir 5th in 2004 (as National champ)
Lysacek 3rd in 2005 (3rd at Nationals)
Bradley 15th in 2007 (2nd at Nationals)
Carriere 10th in 2008 (3rd at Nationals)
Abbott 11th in 2008 (4th at Nationals, went as alternate)
Mroz 9th in 2009 (2nd at Nationals)
Rippon 6th in 2010 (5th at Nationals, went as alternate)

[Squibble]

So in the context of a discussion about Abbott, Weir is somehow a headcase.

I wasn't discussing Abbott; you were.

But if we're drawing comparisons, let's note that Weir and Abbott's career ISU Personal Bests (238.87 at the 2010 Olympics and 237.72 at the 2009 Grand Prix Final, respectively) are virtually the same. The salient difference for me is that Abbott showed at 2010 U.S Nationals that he can skate better than that, whereas none of Weir's performances at Nationals, even those under 6.0, was significantly better than his performance in Vancouver.

[judgejudy27]

So Abbotts best skating is better than Weir (I actually agree with that) yet despite this Weir has had a far more successful career to date. So who is the bigger headcase.

[Cheylana]

I don't think we can compare success "to date," it's apples and oranges. Johnny had 8 full seasons on the senior international level. Jeremy has had four. Johnny didn't medal at Worlds until his fifth try. Jeremy has only been to three Worlds, so he still has two more tries before he can be declared washed up

ETA: It's also worth noting that Johnny had a robust career on the junior circuit, where he was able to pick up valuable experience before going senior. Thanks to his late bloomer situation, Jeremy never got the benefit of JGP events or even a trip to Junior Worlds. I just think it's all apples and oranges.

[olympic]

I don't think we can compare success "to date," it's apples and oranges. Johnny had 8 full seasons on the senior international level. Jeremy has had four. Johnny didn't medal at Worlds until his fifth try. Jeremy has only been to three Worlds, so he still has two more tries before he can be declared washed up

ETA: It's also worth noting that Johnny had a robust career on the junior circuit, where he was able to pick up valuable experience before going senior. Thanks to his late bloomer situation, Jeremy never got the benefit of JGP events or even a trip to Junior Worlds. I just think it's all apples and oranges.

Let's hope this year's the charm...

[robinhood]

I forgot what the poll was about, but it's clearly Jeremy's title to loose. Nobody in that field can challenge his skating skills.
I'd like Armin to make the team. I'm starting to become a fan, and I like his Avatar Lp more than the movie (perhaps cauze it's 3 hours shorter)

[Frau Muller]

I voted "Other" - Johnny Weir surprises everyone and shows up to defend his podium spot and ends up winning with his great PCS scores. [Unless whatever comes out in his tell-all book results in a lifetime USFSA ban.]

Or Armin "pulls a Mirai-2008" and blows the lid off the event, winning his first national title.

[kwanette]

I voted "Other" - Johnny Weir surprises everyone and shows up to defend his podium spot and ends up winning with his great PCS scores. [Unless whatever comes out in his tell-all book results in a lifetime USFSA ban.]

Johnny will be there to receive the MK Trophy..all he needs is some faux fur and Camille..

[blue_idealist]

If you're including Mroz, you could add Mahbanoozadeh to this (not that I think either will win really)

[casken]

I voted Mroz.

Just a feeling.

eta: I think NMURA just put my feeling to words below.

[NMURA]

If you're including Mroz, you could add Mahbanoozadeh to this (not that I think either will win really)

They are not in the same league. Quad or not is the difference of galaxy. I think Mroz has a chance if the USFSA officials and the judges are far sighted strategists. Aboott is too old to shine at Sochi. Rippon is not a strong jumper. A man who couldn't do the 3A until 18 has little chance to master the quad. If Mroz was anointed as the national champion and pushed up as a world level contender, he could be the biggest hope of Sochi (for the US).