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  1. #1
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    Question: Half Loop Combination?

    I see absolutely no skaters trying to do jump combinations with the half loops anymore. The half-loops give a lot of variety other than the toes or loops we always see and a lot more points (?). Was there a rule change so no one does it anymore? Or is it too risky?

    anyway i'd just like to see more variety in jump combinations

  2. #2
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    Half-loops don't give more points, they are called as loops from this season.

    Skaters ARE performing them more often than before.

    Rochette at cheesefest.

    Leonova, Sawyer, Chan, Kemp/King at GP.

    And there must be more, those were just off the top of my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by icellist View Post
    I see absolutely no skaters trying to do jump combinations with the half loops anymore. The half-loops give a lot of variety other than the toes or loops we always see and a lot more points (?). Was there a rule change so no one does it anymore? Or is it too risky?

    anyway i'd just like to see more variety in jump combinations
    Triple-half loop -triple is now a combination of three jumps (3-1-3). I think it may be easier for skaters to do triple -double-double (3-2-2) and the result is probably very similar pointwise, so why bother with two triples connected by half loop?

  4. #4

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    Actually, this season more skaters are attempting combinations joined in the middle by the half loop (designated as '1Lo' in the detailed protocols) because of the ISU rule change that now counts it as a true combination (full base value of the two jumps) rather than as a sequence (80% of the base value of the two jumps).

    I'm sure others can point out examples from the detailed protocols so far this season (eta like Ziggy above). OK, here's one:
    Alena Leonova's 3T+1Lo+3S in her Cup of China FS had a base value of 8.80 and with the positive GOE she received, the total value for this combo was 9.50.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 11-07-2010 at 08:53 PM.

  5. #5
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    oh ok, i'm just really psyched if i can see a triple lutz (half loop) triple flip
    or triple lutz (half loop) triple sal

    but i doubt anyone's going to do those XD

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    My favorite 3-1-3 landed is Plushenko's 3A-1Lp-3F at the 02 Olympics. I don't follow FS like I used to, but I doubt anyone has landed a more difficult 3-1-3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    My favorite 3-1-3 landed is Plushenko's 3A-1Lp-3F at the 02 Olympics. I don't follow FS like I used to, but I doubt anyone has landed a more difficult 3-1-3.
    That was awesome and so unexpected!

    And the funniest moment so far this season is Joubert having his half loop downgraded (<<) and received mandatory -GOEs for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Triple-half loop -triple is now a combination of three jumps (3-1-3). I think it may be easier for skaters to do triple -double-double (3-2-2) and the result is probably very similar pointwise, so why bother with two triples connected by half loop?
    To allow another 2axel.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    To allow another 2axel.
    You don't make sense. If a skater does 3-2-2, it will be the same as 3-1-3. It doesn't have any impact on double Axel.

  10. #10

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    Suppose you have a female skater who can do all the different triples except axel but cannot do a 3-3 combination.

    If she does 3-1-3 for her 3-jump combination, then she can do 7 triples in 6 jumping passes and have one more pass available the required axel jump, which she can do as a double maybe in some positive way.

    If she does 3-2-2 as her 3-jump combination, if the first triple jump is the same, 2Lo+2Lo will add a bit less base value than 1Lo+3S. So the question would be which combo she could carry more flow through to the end and earn higher GOE.

    But more important, if she is unable to do a triple jump from the landing of another triple (or double axel) and chooses to use her 3-jump combo on 3-2-2, she wouldn't be able to fit in 7 triples and a double axel.

    She could do 6 triples, one in each of 6 jumping passes, some with double jumps on the end, and a double axel.

    Or she could do a triple something-double axel sequence, which would incur the 80% sequence penalty.

    Now that the half-loop combination no longer incurs that penalty, the advantage of using it is to allow a female skater to get full value for 7 triples and a double axel (when she completes them all successfully).

    It's less useful for the men because they have one more jumping pass to work with and are more likely to be able to do some kind of 3-3 combo (or 4-3, for the best jumpers).

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    You don't make sense. If a skater does 3-2-2, it will be the same as 3-1-3. It doesn't have any impact on double Axel.
    Yes it makes sense. If you land two triple jumps in combo or sequence, you open a new slot for another 2Axel.

    And I agree with gkelly about the fact that it's less useful for the men, except that it's easier for some skaters to land cleanly 3/half-loop/2sal than 3/2toe/2Loop.
    And it's almost the same points. See Joubert, he has many troubles with those three jumps combo. But it's easier to do a half-Loop. The problem with him is that it seems he never learnt the half-loop properly !!!!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by icellist View Post
    oh ok, i'm just really psyched if i can see a triple lutz (half loop) triple flip
    or triple lutz (half loop) triple sal

    but i doubt anyone's going to do those XD
    Patrick Chan has 3z half loop 3s in his LP. He doubled the sal in his LP at Skate Canada but did it in practice, so you should see that combination this season.

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    I'm not sure about the math on this, but does this mean that we'll see way less

    <whatever jump> + step + double axel sequences

    and more

    <whatever jump> + half loop + double(triple) salchow/double (triple) flip sequences in future?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerek View Post
    I'm not sure about the math on this, but does this mean that we'll see way less

    <whatever jump> + step + double axel sequences

    and more

    <whatever jump> + half loop + double(triple) salchow/double (triple) flip sequences in future?
    It depends on the skater, but I think you're right about math.

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    Suppose you have a female skater who can do all the different triples except axel but cannot do a 3-3 combination.

    If she does 3-1-3 for her 3-jump combination,
    I don't think putting the half loop in makes the second triple any easier. Its main value is that it puts the skater on the other foot, to permit the following jump to be salchow, flip or lutz, rather than loop or toeloop.

    I am trying to recall if any ladies have successfully done a 3-1-3 series who could not also do a 3-3. Numerous ladies over the years have planned 2A-halfL-3S but rarely actually landed them in competition. I do recall Kurt Browning doing a very pretty one a few years ago in one of his SOI numbers.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I am trying to recall if any ladies have successfully done a 3-1-3 series who could not also do a 3-3.
    Maria B comes to mind. I recall her landing the 3T-1Lp-3S, but don't recall her ever landing a 3-3.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I don't think putting the half loop in makes the second triple any easier. Its main value is that it puts the skater on the other foot, to permit the following jump to be salchow, flip or lutz, rather than loop or toeloop.
    Well, in order for the last jump to be a lutz, there would also have to be a change of edge, and that would negate the combo.

    Or as we saw earlier this season (Shawn Sawyer at NHK IIRC), if there's a half-loop, change of foot to triple loop as the last jump, the change of foot makes the whole thing a sequence instead of a combo. In that case, with this year's rules, it's the change of foot rather than the half loop that makes it not-a-combo. But I certainly think half-loop, change of foot, triple loop is easier than just doing a triple loop straight from the landing of the first jump.

    Also I would say that it's easier to do a triple salchow (or flip) from a half-loop after another jump than from a back inside edge landing of another multirevolution jump. Of course we never see back inside edge landing of multirev jump into salchow with triples as the first jump. I've only seen it with one-foot axel (rare) and maybe twice in my life at lower levels with one-foot double salchow. So it's not an issue at senior level.

    But at, say, intermediate level, I think axel-half loop-double salchow is easier than one-foot axel-double salchow. The former will now earn more points because it includes a few tenths of a point for the 1Lo. But it also uses up the three-jump combination.

    I am trying to recall if any ladies have successfully done a 3-1-3 series who could not also do a 3-3.
    Maria Butyrskaya successfully did triple toe-half loop-triple sal a few times. I don't believe she ever did a triple-triple.

    I think Joannie Rochette landed one or two successful 3-3 combos in her career, but more 3-1-3s than that.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Suppose you have a female skater who can do all the different triples except axel but cannot do a 3-3 combination.

    If she does 3-1-3 for her 3-jump combination, then she can do 7 triples in 6 jumping passes and have one more pass available the required axel jump, which she can do as a double maybe in some positive way.

    If she does 3-2-2 as her 3-jump combination, if the first triple jump is the same, 2Lo+2Lo will add a bit less base value than 1Lo+3S. So the question would be which combo she could carry more flow through to the end and earn higher GOE.

    But more important, if she is unable to do a triple jump from the landing of another triple (or double axel) and chooses to use her 3-jump combo on 3-2-2, she wouldn't be able to fit in 7 triples and a double axel.

    She could do 6 triples, one in each of 6 jumping passes, some with double jumps on the end, and a double axel.

    Or she could do a triple something-double axel sequence, which would incur the 80% sequence penalty.

    Now that the half-loop combination no longer incurs that penalty, the advantage of using it is to allow a female skater to get full value for 7 triples and a double axel (when she completes them all successfully).

    It's less useful for the men because they have one more jumping pass to work with and are more likely to be able to do some kind of 3-3 combo (or 4-3, for the best jumpers).
    Oh, OK. Thank you for that! Now I understand it! (It took me some time....)

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Numerous ladies over the years have planned 2A-halfL-3S but rarely actually landed them in competition.
    BUT there was one that could do 2A-1/2L-3S consistently FOR YEARS ON END . . so consistent that it was an afterthought . . .

    Midori Ito 伊藤 みどり (JPN) - 1988 Worlds, Ladies' Long Program

    Midori Ito 1988 Calgary Olympics LP

    Midori Ito 1988 Jpn Nats LP

    Midori Ito 伊藤 みどり (JPN)- 1987 NHK Trophy, Ladies' Long Program

    Midori Ito 1987 Worlds LP

    Midori Ito 1987 Jpn Nats LP

    Midori Ito - 1986 World Championships Long Program

    I just love her

    . . . she got lazy, and gave it up in favor of a solo jump, the 3A
    Last edited by bardtoob; 11-08-2010 at 09:06 PM.

  20. #20
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    Tara Lipinski did the 2A+half loop+3S combo before upgrading it to a 3T+half loop+3S in her Olympic year.

    Miki Ando has landed the 2A+half loop+3S in juniors:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMHtiV9KZvU (the jumping in the first 40 seconds of this program is insane, and you can see how smooth a skater she is).

    I believe Evan Lysacek used to do 3F+half loop+3S sequences, but can't think of any others.

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