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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Did politicking for Carron / Jones get annoying for C/L, do you suppose? C/J are about the same level at Worlds as C/L. Not everyone enjoys having that close competition at their training rink. OTOH, D&W and V&M seemed to thrive on it.
    I still think the move is more about results - and they just werent getting them. Last year they fell in the rankings, and their debut this year could only be called a disaster. Their programs SUCK IMO [but tastes differ] and they were obviously under-prepared for NHK.

    I dont think it has too much to do with being the 2nd Italian team, either. Last year at GPF they were almost beaten in the FD by the 2nd Canadian team, and at NHK they were beaten by the 3rd Canadian team and 2 couples straight from juniors. So I dont think that was protocol judging.

    I agree with the poster who said they are just not progressing technically with this coach - for whatever reason. Didnt P/B say Zhulin taught them a lot more about technique than they ever got from their french coaches. And I think that's true - their skating really improved very noticeably with their new coach.

    I'm hoping that C/L will find a coach who's a good match to them soon.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballettmaus View Post
    Right. Forgot about Carron/Jones...
    That's not a lot though, given how many couples there were during times of Marina and Gwendal.
    Ice dance has changed since then.
    Now Lyon is more top of the crop than it was. And other centers have developped too, keeping their juniors. So those who move to Lyon really have a lot of ambition.
    This is a new cycle, all the dancers above 20yo who had no excellent junior results have stopped. Younger dancers will come up. Now Lyon and France pretty much know of what their future will be done. I don't think they are afraid of any "hole" even after Sotchi.

    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Did politicking for Carron / Jones get annoying for C/L, do you suppose? C/J are about the same level at Worlds as C/L. Not everyone enjoys having that close competition at their training rink. OTOH, D&W and V&M seemed to thrive on it.
    It was the same for D/L and D/S and D/L never had to complain about anything.
    What I think is that as usual Muriel takes time to develop the style of her dancers. First year is usually for home choreography. Second year for a special idea from the dancers themselves or for a work with someone Muriel has already worked with.

    This year, C/L were working with Dubreuil / Lauzon who have done their SD and FD (D/L always tweak their choreos during the season). My take is that C/L were considering it wasn't going quick enough. But that's how Muriel works. She lets the dancers search, try things and directs them toward what suits them the most. Usually, it takes 3 years for her dancers to come up with really great stuff (Cats which was the first original idea of Péchalat/Bourzat, Chopin for Carron/Jost, Delshoes' Frida). That's long term strategy that pays off and sets couples from Lyon apart.

    Anna and Luca are in a hurry with all the young couples who are showing up right now in senior (what I'm calling the CoP revolution, with young couples better at dealing with the CoP than older ones ; it has begun by Northern America but Europe is preparing the rise of its own CoP generation and they can see that everyday in their training center) but I'm not sure that their decision will be fruitful and will not sacrifice the long term for a short term solution that may or may not work.
    Last edited by Nmsis; 11-08-2010 at 01:35 AM.

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    I really like C&L's SD, especially the GW sequence to QSS. It just flows so well to the music and their expression is perfect. The quickstep portion just needs more quickstep for me.

    I actually thought they improved under Zazoui quite a bit in that they moved across the ice better and their edges seemed stronger. In the past, their skating(her in particular) felt not just small, but *tiny* to me. That has improved noticeably in the past two years, it's just that they've just been making too many mistakes to get their programs across.

    I'm not usually into the style of FD that C&L did this year, but there was something about it that made me want to see it again clean, so I'm a bit bummed that it got shelved.
    Last edited by casken; 11-08-2010 at 03:20 AM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's a retro themed program that is supposed to imitate traditional ballroom dancing. You might not like that music but it works very well with the idea they've chosen.
    I agree. I certainly wouldn't put Doris Day on my iPod, but I think it really works for their SD.

    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    I'm OK with the SD, although Doris Day is a bit much, but I wish Anna did not have that strange skirt with the life of its own.
    I love the skirt.
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmsis View Post
    What I think is that as usual Muriel takes time to develop the style of her dancers. .......

    Anna and Luca are in a hurry with all the young couples who are showing up right now in senior ......... but I'm not sure that their decision will be fruitful and will not sacrifice the long term for a short term solution that may or may not work.
    Interesting explanation [sorry I cut out a lot of it] - I wonder if C/L fully understood Zazoui's work method when they went to her. And I wonder if she will have to change her approach to teaching or keep losing students.

    I think in the old days - when places were more locked in and held for you - it was easier to take your time. Now, if you dont make a impression fairly quickly, you can be written off and passed by younger teams. Personally I think that's good for ice dancing - I like sports to be unpredictible - but it disavantages teams with this kind of coaching strategy IMO.

    I would say - with A/V now in seniors - C/L just could not afford to slide another season.

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    I think Ana listened to her federation too much and Paola has been politiking to get one couple back (it could have been F&S for all I heard).
    So building on the crappy results so far this season, Ana decided to listen to the devil. Luca had nothing to do with the decision from what I heard
    poths Void: MarieM carries a rusty old blade in her handbag!

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's a retro themed program that is supposed to imitate traditional ballroom dancing.
    You can do traditional ballroom dancing [assuming you'd want to] to waaaayyyy better music than that. And retro does not equal OTT cutesy and sugary sweet.

    Anna and Luca are DIVAS! You dont give them music the Shibs would balk at using! Evuhhh!

    What were they thinking? [or more likely smoking] when they came up with that drek????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    Interesting explanation [sorry I cut out a lot of it] - I wonder if C/L fully understood Zazoui's work method when they went to her.
    I think they did. They just didn't expect couples such as Crone / Poirier or Samuelson / Bates to rise so quickly.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    And I wonder if she will have to change her approach to teaching or keep losing students.
    I don't think she will and I don't think she should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    I think in the old days - when places were more locked in and held for you - it was easier to take your time. Now, if you dont make a impression fairly quickly, you can be written off and passed by younger teams. Personally I think that's good for ice dancing - I like sports to be unpredictible - but it disavantages teams with this kind of coaching strategy IMO.
    It's also easier to come back after a low season. Look at Dubreuil / Lauzon and Delobel / Schoenfelder compared to Belbin / Agosto. It's the turtoise and the hare.

    And I think there is an optical illusion in ice dance.
    What is happening in Northern America is that a new generation is on the rise, perfectly fit for the CoP. The first ones were Virtue/Moir and Davis/White, now Crone/Poirier, Samuelson/Bates, the Shibutanis ... They have "overthrown" the "elders" in their own countries and are threatening the couples of the world top 10. After a few "exceptional" dancers, Northern America is now able to consistently "produce" dancers with similar technical qualities. Why ? Because all their competitive life, they have focused on what scores in the CoP system.

    OTOH, Europe still has older dancers who have adapted to CoP. They are not going to gain magically the same characteristics than young northern american dancers. For them , that's catching up while still paying attention to what they have always paid attention to, ie details (toe point, posture, lines ...) and style.
    But in the next cycle, I can bet that the same phenomenon that happened in Northern America is going to happen in Europe. Illinykh/Katsalapov are just the first ones. A young generation is going to threaten the elders the same way, a cycle later. In France, Péchalat / Bourzat will be safe going into Sotchi. The other 2 couples should be in a hurry because, by the end of this olympic cycle, their national rank will be far from safe. And I wouldn't bet on the older russian couples either.

    So should Zazoui change her strategy ? No.
    For the younger couples, the job is being done technically and they'll probably have the same rise than northern american dancers when they'll become seniors. What they need, especially to gain an advantage over others, is precisely to develop their own style and pay attention to the many details that used to be so important in ice dance.
    For the older ones, what they have to do is doing everything, working on developping their style, details and skating technique. That's a heavier work but that's the only way for them to counter the arrival of the younger generation, even if it takes some lows. Refusing that is the path downhill IMHO. I just hope Anna and Luca will be able to still get everything they need with Mezzadri.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    I would say - with A/V now in seniors - C/L just could not afford to slide another season.
    I actually think they could. With another year with Faiella / Scali as Italy's number 1, they have 1 year to do the fundamental work (skating technique, development of style) this season so they can really be great for next year.
    About the FD, the only problem was actually to tweak the program (which is not a problem with Marie-France and Patrice) and skate it consistantly (which comes with repetitions ; with half a new program at the NHK Trophy, no wonder it was a mess). Dancers all have to deal with short and long term goals. Sacrificing the long term for the short term helps to alleviate the frustration but I don't think it's the best solution in the end.

    Plus going short or long term is also cultural. In France, people will always believe in the long term and not in the short term. Zazoui is no different.

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    So sad. I will go to Portland tomorrow, but I cannot see C/L.

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    I'm interested to know why the FD was considered to be suitable for C/L in the first place or maybe it just looked better in pratice than it did in competition..who knows! I wish C/L good luck though..I hope they find the right programs and coaches for their needs. I look forward to seeing what they come up with next!

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It would be idiotic to go to Z&S considering how many teams they are coaching already. They wouldn't have enough time for them.
    We agree on something!

    I would also add, how many Shpilband Zoueva dances can we stand to look at?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoxFox View Post
    I'm interested to know why the FD was considered to be suitable for C/L in the first place or maybe it just looked better in pratice than it did in competition..who knows! I wish C/L good luck though..I hope they find the right programs and coaches for their needs. I look forward to seeing what they come up with next!
    I didn't think it was that bad, but it just lacked something, like ..the program never peaked during the 4 minutes .. maybe someone thought it was just a matter of time, that they would have add some more interpretation or that it was going to be more polished and clean as time goes by.. but eventually it was not brilliant as some of their other programs. I also have nothing against their SD.
    It just looks like they're not progressing.
    CaroFan™

  13. #53

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    I found it very strange that they didn't have the 'wow' impact I expected right after the change. I thought they would come out in 2010 and really surprise people but Requiem certainly didn't have that intention.
    It was a very enjoyable free and when skated well certainly was very powerful and captivating (I remember some judges gave them 9's for it at Europeans, if my memory serves me right) but it didn't look like a Zazoui free dance at all, it was extremely empty, full of stroking.
    I then assumed that they didn't get much attention with all the Delobel pregnancy circus and that this year they would crack it. 2010 was perhaps just a year to do a faster, emptier programme with deeper egdges and a different style.

    I am in the minority who liked this year's free, it would have worked with more time. The OD is blah but then most ODs have become very blah lately.

    What I don't understand in the Zazoui camp is the D/Lauzon fascination. Why are they doing all the choreography? I don't think their work is that brilliant, it's very repetitve, they want all the couples to look the same and be in love etc.. I hated D/Sch 2009 fd, I don't think that romantic softer style they started leaning towards suited them at all. The same was being done with Anna and Luca this year.

    I guess they can be disappointed in their rise because in 2007 everyone predicted they would beat F/S easily by now but a lot of dance couples go back in the rankings these days and still bounce back.

    I think the main problem in the French camp, is that they are never ready early on. No disrespect, they might always have the superior material but all their couples are prone to mistakes and don't get the high levels early in the season. Harsh thing to say but they obviously don't prepare or concentrate enough on the tech side. It use to take D/Schoe a whole season to get level 4 on a dance spin, I mean come on! Most Shpilband couples might bore you to death but they come armed with their level 3 and 4s from the very first showing. Granted they all use and recycle the same footwork but it does the trick. Lyon needs to understand that the PCS are worth nothing if the levels are low. C/L got higher PCS in NHK than most and ended up 5th.

    I guess no one but the people immediately involved know what went wrong but I'm pretty sure they will bounce back. The idea of changing the FD is generally futile, it rarely works mid way through the season. Better stick to what you have and maximise and refine it then dump it and start again.

  14. #54
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    Here is an article on C/L in Italian:
    http://www.wintersport-news.it/it_IT/2395,News.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLIVER View Post
    What I don't understand in the Zazoui camp is the D/Lauzon fascination. Why are they doing all the choreography?
    Did D&L do Carron and Jones choreo? Their FD doesn't look like a D&L program at all to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafter View Post
    Did D&L do Carron and Jones choreo? Their FD doesn't look like a D&L program at all to me.
    This year Carron-Jounes FD was made by Antonia Nahharo

  17. #57
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    Nmsis - very interesting points.

    With regards to C/L, maybe we focused too much on the lack of short-term progress but who knows, maybe if they stuck with Zazoui, the improvement would eventually come.

    If you're changing your technique on the jumps, you will always regress at first (case in point Mao this season), maybe the same thing can be said about Ice Dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I would also add, how many Shpilband Zoueva dances can we stand to look at?
    None?

    Quote Originally Posted by SLIVER View Post
    The idea of changing the FD is generally futile, it rarely works mid way through the season. Better stick to what you have and maximise and refine it then dump it and start again.
    Good point.

    It takes a huge deal of time to make the program look polished.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmsis View Post
    ........
    It's also easier to come back after a low season. Look at Dubreuil / Lauzon and Delobel / Schoenfelder compared to Belbin / Agosto. It's the turtoise and the hare.

    I actually think they could. With another year with Faiella / Scali as Italy's number 1, they have 1 year to do the fundamental work (skating technique, development of style) this season so they can really be great for next year.
    About the FD, the only problem was actually to tweak the program....

    Plus going short or long term is also cultural. In France, people will always believe in the long term and not in the short term. Zazoui is no different.
    Thanks for your explanation - it was an interesting insight into a different approach to training.

    I agree with you about younger European teams making an impact - but my guess is it will happen in earnest in the next cycle [after Sochi].

    I dont think it would be that easy for C/L to claw their way back from a further slide this season [which doesnt mean I'm right ]. Perception still means a lot in Dance. If you're perceived as being in decline and not making progress, you tend to be marked that way. You become kind of stuck in a rut and you need to do something drastic [like change coaches] to start moving again. P/B are a good example of this. They were going nowhere - IIRC stuck in 9th-12th[?] at Worlds - being passed by far younger teams - until they went to Zhulin. Their skating really improved and so did their ranking. But I doubt this would have happened in they stayed with Zazoui - and they said this themselves.

    I dont think either Dub/Lauzon or Del/Sh were coming back from a low ranked season when they beat B/A. They had been hovering about mid-5/6 for a while. This is about the same situation [7/8 wasnt it?] C/L were in when they went to Zazoui - probably they were hoping to get a push up to near medal position - maybe overtake F/S at home. Instead they fell out of the top 10 completely. This year, judging by NHK, they would probably have come 10-15th [OMO]. Yes, they might have improved with more time under Zazoui - who knows? - although P/B didnt. But it would have taken several years for them to just get back to the ranking they had when they left [6-8] - and by that time the new European juniors would just be starting to make their mark.

    And I think that FD needed more than "tweaking" - I really didnt get any sense at all of any relation to the music - it made the SS esp seem out of sync - and the whole thing just seemed so strange. They were skating around - doing mostly elements - with no real connection to the music at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLIVER View Post
    What I don't understand in the Zazoui camp is the D/Lauzon fascination. Why are they doing all the choreography? I don't think their work is that brilliant, it's very repetitve, they want all the couples to look the same and be in love etc..
    Zazoui sent Carron/Jost to them in 2007-2008 because C/J didn't knew what they wanted to do.
    I think Delschoes worked with them because they wanted to share ideas about the elements and get their feedback about the overall impression as D/L are known for their musicality.
    I think that's the 2 cases in which Zazoui send her dancers to them. Because they are never short of ideas. So either dancers chose to work with them or dancers with little idea about what they want are sent to them. Carron/Jones (2nd year together) are working with Najarro and a junior couple also in its 2nd year together is working with Michel Durand who did Delschoes cancan OD last year. 2nd year in Lyon or together for couples who don't have a strong identity is for getting out and trying stuff. I must say I find Carron/Jones FD far more terrible than Cappellini/Lanotte but that goes in the right direction, ie be bold, try stuff, have some artistic ambition. The first try may not be the good one but I think they will find their path quicker this way than by any other mean. Nowadays we have 20 yo dancers that skates programs that people would have been considered old-fashion 20 years ago. That is what I find really terrible.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    They were going nowhere - IIRC stuck in 9th-12th[?] at Worlds - being passed by far younger teams - until they went to Zhulin. Their skating really improved and so did their ranking. But I doubt this would have happened in they stayed with Zazoui - and they said this themselves.
    Nathalie and Fabian were not stuck, in any way. Early in their career, they were prone to mistakes in the "moments of truth" (they still are, even last year but a bit less than before). They really began to rise in 2006-2007 with their Four Season program, when the judges didn't push them up that much but began to really set their gazes on them and to consider that ther past inconsistency was getting better (12th at World, 15th the year before) and in 2007-2008 with their Madness one (7th at World, 5th at Euros). That was all under Zazoui. Then they were always saying that they were getting better and better but were not yet to be able to reproduce in competition the level of what they were able to do during the training. And they got stuck with Delschoes as french number 1 so they moved in Russia, put more of their time in training and went on with the ideas they had got from there.

    Even this year (probably for the last time), their programs are (still is for the FD, not anymore with the new SD) in the continuity of their work in Lyon.
    There, they began to work with the Compagnie Kafig which was based on the Maison de la danse de Lyon (that worked really well, except last year while working with Zhulin) and they adopted the idea Zazoui had for DelSchoes just before they left, ie working with actors and theater directors. To "upgrade" Delshoes during the last cycle (from 2007 on), as people were reproaching them to be cold, Zazoui made them work with people from a theatre in Lyon (hence the openings of their CDs and improvements in their expression). The year after, P/B were doing their first "dramatic" program with the actor and mime Julien Cottereau (Circus) as a try to do the opposite of their Madness program, ie reach people's sensitivity instead of being voidy but sometimes qualified as "cold". That worked well even if that could have been developped further. The year after, they came back to Kafig but it was given no chance and the Zhulin reworked version didn't help IMHO . This season, they have developped the dramatic idea with Cottereau to its full potential. And I think their FD has the biggest potential to attract the love of the public and the judges. But the choreo itself is dull. The whole interest lies in the customisation of the moves (there were changes in almost all the elements after the Nebelhorn and the Masters) and in the interpretation to create a chaplinesque ambiance. That's a very delicate work that has been done on that FD and that's the work of a pantomime they have "absorbed".

    Now I think that they are reaching the limit of the ideas they got in Lyon. It's fine for this year but the problem for them in the next 3 years will be : will they be able to find a new impulse ? Because as far as Zhulin goes, the only thing I've witnessed is that as soon as something doesn't go smoothly, it goes to the trash can. New lifts, new elements, ideas, programs ... They tend to become repetitive. Repetition brings more steadiness and confidence. But after a while, if there is no new idea to bring some interest, it becomes dull, even if it's well skated. It's the real danger for them and I hope they will be able to avoid it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    I dont think either Dub/Lauzon or Del/Sh were coming back from a low ranked season when they beat B/A.
    World
    2001 : DubLauz 11th, Delschoes 13th, Belgosto 17th
    2002 : DubLauz 10th, Delschoes 12th, Belgosto 13th
    2003 : DubLauz 10th (they began with Zazoui then) , Delschoes 9th, Belgosto 7th
    2004 : DubLauz 8th, Delschoes 6th, Belgosto 5th
    2005 : DubLauz 7th, Delschoes 4th, Belgosto 2nd
    2006 : DubLauz 2nd, Delschoes 5th, Belgosto 3rd
    2007 : DubLauz 2nd, Delschoes 4th, Belgosto, 3rd
    2008 : Delschoes 1st, Belgosto 4th
    2009 : Belgosto 2nd

    Depends on what you consider a low season but being overtaken by a younger team, stagnating away from the podium, or even going down in the rankings, both DubLauz and Delschoes have known that. And they finally made a blast on the podium while Belgosto began to have doubts.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    This is about the same situation [7/8 wasnt it?] C/L were in when they went to Zazoui - probably they were hoping to get a push up to near medal position - maybe overtake F/S at home. Instead they fell out of the top 10 completely.
    C/L at Worlds
    2007 : 13th
    2008 : 10th
    2009 : 10th
    2010 : 11th (their year in Lyon)
    They indeed did fell out the top 10 but they were barely in the top 10 and were stagnating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    This year, judging by NHK, they would probably have come 10-15th [OMO]. Yes, they might have improved with more time under Zazoui - who knows? - although P/B didnt. But it would have taken several years for them to just get back to the ranking they had when they left [6-8] - and by that time the new European juniors would just be starting to make their mark.
    P/B did. There is a world (and 2 years) between this ... and this or this.

    It took 2 years for DubLauz to go from 8th to 2nd at World. But their silver was on their 4th year in Lyon.
    Last edited by Nmsis; 11-10-2010 at 07:56 AM.

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    You should factor into that timeframe when D&L and D&S became number one in their countries and when D&W started seriously challenging B&Ad for their spot. I think that is too big a factor to ignore.

    Fwiw I think C&L's FD would have been just fine with more mileage on it. But it's a D&L program, just as DelShoebs GGITS FD had D&L written all over it. It's not original by any means but skated well with the required tech elements and it should have been enough to keep them warm within the top ten while they wait for F&S to move on.

    So I think SLIVER is closer to the real problem.
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