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  1. #81
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    The CUNYs did raise their admissions standards, but not to a "very high" point at all. IMO, the SATs needed for the CUNY senior colleges are still fairly lowish - CR 480, math 480/500. But the colleges feel that at that level, the kids don't need remedial classes in math and English.

    I don't have any problem with four year colleges (public and private) turning away students who are not ready for college-level work, so long as there is a place for those students to get caught up. So long as the ccs (or something else) are there for such students, I'm not opposed to this idea.
    I think it's 500 for both when I applied a few years ago. It's still fairly low, like you said. My school "remedies" that by having students take a mandatory math proficiency exam and your score determines the level of math you need/can take. Those who placed under are required to take a remedial basic course for no credit (it's free) before they can take a higher level class. There's a loop hole though. If you're working towards a BA, apparently students take a math theory class to fulfill the math requirement.

    I placed into calculus and I was exempt from having to take a high level math class, since I'm working towards a BA. BS majors all are required to do so. I ended up taking Applied Mathematics. It was difficult but I learned about compound interest rates!

    Despite the average/low admission standards, the CPE is supposed to the crack down on low success. CUNY honors have been all the rage since I started. To me, I think there's been an increasing divide amongst the students, in which Honors suggest that your education is better and they are perks involved. I turned down the invite because I'm perfectly happy taking non-honors classes, which has been an incredible experience so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quintuple View Post
    I honestly don't think a lot of kids put much into applying and going to college, actually. When cuts are made, I hear/see a lot of stories from ambitious kids who have goals, and even if they don't know exactly what careers they want, they know they want further education. But I think the majority of college kids wind up there because it's the most obvious, automatic thing to do after high school. Maybe I'm out of touch though - it just seems that way to me.
    As someone who works at a university, I can totally concur with this, which is why we see so many students stuggling academically. For as many students we see who are really here to study and get an education, we see nearly an equal amount who move aimlessly from major to major: either because they can't find something that interests them or they cannot keep up academically in their most recent program of choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer
    Colleges aren't seeing quite as many parents who are willing to put themselves into debt to pay for their children's tuition, but there are still a lot of them around, and there are still plenty who just can't see the opportunity to attend a top school pass by, no matter what. As a society, we don't have a particularly good record for putting off what we can't afford today if there's a chance we can pay it off tomorrow.
    This does not only pertain to private colleges. You would not believe the amount of we hear in my office at the thought of parents actually having to pay or take out a parent loan if a student's financial aid does not cover their full costs (which it generally does not if a student is living on campus and not commuting).

    The students who most irritate me though are the ones who want to drive nice cars, wear designer clothes and living in private housing and have no way to pay for any of those things so they sign up for a mountain of debt to get a degree in art or P.E.
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    The students who most irritate me though are the ones who want to drive nice cars, wear designer clothes and living in private housing and have no way to pay for any of those things so they sign up for a mountain of debt to get a degree in art or P.E.
    I hear that a lot when it comes time to buy books that are specifically meant to be purchased at a local bookstore. Unless she was wearing and carry fake designer goods, this girl in front me was abhorred with spending $100 on textbooks. I highly doubt she was wearing any fakes because I had physics lab with her in high school. Meanwhile, I was there with an armful of used books at prices.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    The students who most irritate me though are the ones who want to drive nice cars, wear designer clothes and living in private housing and have no way to pay for any of those things so they sign up for a mountain of debt to get a degree in art or P.E.
    What irritates me is that some people think that a degree in art is "less than".

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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    You would not believe the amount of we hear in my office at the thought of parents actually having to pay or take out a parent loan if a student's financial aid does not cover their full costs (which it generally does not if a student is living on campus and not commuting).
    I'm not clear on what you're saying. That the people are upset at the thought of having to take out a parent PLUS loan? And that you think their angst over doing so is exaggerated?
    Use Yah Blinkah!

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    What irritates me is that some people think that a degree in art is "less than".
    It's often less than employable - at least in the traditional sense. Doesn't mean it's more or less valuable, it just depends on what you value. Once upon a time, teaching was a sure-fire degree if you wanted to guarantee getting a job right away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesperholly View Post
    It's often less than employable - at least in the traditional sense. Doesn't mean it's more or less valuable, it just depends on what you value. Once upon a time, teaching was a sure-fire degree if you wanted to guarantee getting a job right away.
    I agree that in some "fields" of art, it is more difficult to find work. However, and I'm not directing this at you, what I take exception to is the mentality that slackers get degrees in art. Anyone who thinks that should try on an art major's schedule and work load for a week or so. Then tell me how easy it is. Many don't appreciate the math (geometry, proportion, scaling) skills needed in art, the creative thinking skills, and art history for art majors - .

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I agree that in some "fields" of art, it is more difficult to find work. However, and I'm not directing this at you, what I take exception to is the mentality that slackers get degrees in art. Anyone who thinks that should try on an art major's schedule and work load for a week or so. Then tell me how easy it is. Many don't appreciate the math (geometry, proportion, scaling) skills needed in art, the creative thinking skills, and art history for art majors - .
    Depends on the program. A BA in art at my alma mater is piddly compared to a BA from Art Center. I've heard of UCBerkeley engineering majors thinking that Art Center's workload was more difficult than in engineering.

    I don't think it's necessarily more difficult in terms of intellect, but it's A LOT of work. No matter how talented you are, you still have to put in the hours for it.

    Even then, when I took night classes at Art Center and told people I was really a biology major somewhere else, the Art Center students would joke that I'd actually find a job when I graduated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    What irritates me is that some people think that a degree in art is "less than".
    I have a degree in an artistic field. So no, I don't think, having a degree in an art field is a bad thing. However, realistically how many people are going to be able to leave college with a degree in an art field and be able to work enough to pay back tens of thousands of dollars in student loans in a timely manner? Would it not be more prudent to share a room, or buying clothes at Old Navy or Target or WalMart instead of Macy's, Nordstrom, etc., or getting a reliable used car from a dealership instead of a new sports car if it ends up saving a student an extra $30k in debt (or more)?

    And while I have worked and made money in my degree field in the past, I now work in financial aid. About as far from my degree area as you could get. I know how tough it is, and I would not recommend someone to go massively into debt to get a degree in such an economically unreliable field. Sorry if you disagree with that; I'm just going on my own personal experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    I'm not clear on what you're saying. That the people are upset at the thought of having to take out a parent PLUS loan? And that you think their angst over doing so is exaggerated?
    No, I certainly do not begrudge parents from having angst over taking out a Parent PLUS loan in these dire economic times. In fact, I still see a fair amount of parents who would rather take a PLUS loan for themselves and not allow the student to take any student loans out, despite the lower interest rate.

    What I was getting at was how you would be surprised at the percentage of parents who seem to think college should be "free", just like grade school and high school, or whose attitude is simply, "My kid was obviously smart enough to get into college, so they should get every scholarship and grant available and get a free ride."

    And then there are the parents who insist their daughter/son gets a private loan instead of a parent loan. And usually the student only gets it through the help of a co-signer, like a grandparent, because the parent refuses to help.

    Unfortunately, it also seems to me that a lot of parents and students do not research the costs before they sign up for classes and housing. I work for a school which has the lowest tuition of any public 4-year university in my state, but with tuition, housing and a meal plan the cost is still closing on $17k a year.

    But we see those parents who drop their kid off at the college without thinking about the costs or simply knowing they cannot afford to attend, and the student leaves after a semester or two with an outstanding bill and a terrible credit ranking months later when they have been turned over to a collection agency because they owe a large sum of money on their bill.
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    And while I have worked and made money in my degree field in the past, I now work in financial aid. About as far from my degree area as you could get. I know how tough it is, and I would not recommend someone to go massively into debt to get a degree in such an economically unreliable field. Sorry if you disagree with that; I'm just going on my own personal experience.
    Yeah, cost is the main reason why I'm forgoing art school.

    Also, your observation about artistic majors could apply to many liberal arts majors as well. Our graduating class was the first one where they had a financial seminar series, where they explained how to generally handle your own finances. It was pretty helpful, I thought. Although I think general business/accounting classes would also be really helpful for a field like art, where you often go freelance finding your own work. I don't think applicable business techniques are taught enough.

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    I was a fine arts major. Painted, sculpted, drew, etched, etc. I had the foresight to take marketing classes my senior year. I was an art director for one of the top Ad agencies in NYC. It's tough now, not because I am not creative or skilled enough in art. But I don't have the computer skills of a kid coming out of college, with a degree in graphics, now. There were no computers when I was in school. I can do much of it, but I am not as at home with computers as younger people are.

    There are jobs in creative fields, it's what you do to prepare yourself.

    Peibeck, I am guessing that I misunderstood your post. However it came off as suggesting that art majors are not really doing much of anything. I am thinking that is not what you meant, but that is how I took it.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    http://www.campusgrotto.com/colleges...otal-cost.html

    Rather depressing, isn't it? Both of my kids went to a school on this list . We paid for it, now we're done!

    My son was a philosophy major too. But had a double major - philosophy and political science. He just started law school. That he had to cover. He got about 60% in a school given in merit scholarship, for the rest, he got a loan.
    Beat you. My daughter went to the NUMBER ONE school on the list. (Their student/faculty ratio and the one-on-one work done with full professors is the reason the cost is so high, plus they've never had a big endowment.) But with more than half the cost whittled away by grant aid, it didn't cost much more than paying full tuition at University of Maryland!

    And again, I sorta agree with those who want to hold colleges more accountable for the "results." It's just so difficult to define results. Is a modestly-salaried person whose college experience means s/he reads, votes, enjoys an expanded cultural life and so on going to think it was worth the cost when s/he is still paying the loans off twenty years later? Depends on the person, doesn't it?
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaternum View Post
    I'm sure I'll get a verbal smack for somebody for saying this, but I think it's the whole entitlement thing. Kids feel entitled to go to the best school they can get in. Parents overindulge, to the point of destroying their own retirements. Pretty much the same entitlement mentality that got us into the mortgage and credit card crisis. Just because someone will loan you a million dollars doesn't mean you should borrow it. Nobody wants to make the hard choices. Nobody wants to think seriously and realistically about the future.
    The flip side of the above argument is that top students from modest backgrounds should never aspire to the most prestigious colleges or universities. I think American society would lose a great deal if this were the case.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic View Post
    The flip side of the above argument is that top students from modest backgrounds should never aspire to the most prestigious colleges or universities. I think American society would lose a great deal if this were the case.
    I see the entitlement thing as being separate as whether top kids from modest backgrounds should apply to top colleges. My elder sibling applied to top colleges and got accepted to all but I never saw him as feeling entitled; it's more like "doing this for family glory/honor". Now if he had expected his parents to foot the bill 100% then I would have considered him as feeling entitled.

    But other kids from modest backgrounds might have done it for other reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    Beat you. My daughter went to the NUMBER ONE school on the list. (Their student/faculty ratio and the one-on-one work done with full professors is the reason the cost is so high, plus they've never had a big endowment.) But with more than half the cost whittled away by grant aid, it didn't cost much more than paying full tuition at University of Maryland!
    Nah uh ! I had two in at the same time for 3 years. $50,xxx.00 + $48,xxx.00 trumps your one. & .

    Seriously, one of the big reasons that both my kids went to the schools they did was also due to very small student/faculty ratios. Neither of mine got any sort of aid.

    As far as name schools for undergraduate. There is no question that my son's "name" undergrad school (and his grades there) got him the merit scholarship he now has in law school. My daughter's school was not the same level of "name" that my son's was, but it will help her in getting into a master's program. She has decided she wants to get her master's in occupational therapy. She has an undergrad in behavioral science and has experience working with/teaching autistic spectrum kids, she's amazing with them. And she loves it. I worried that it might be too emotional, but she calls me every day, after she's done teaching, and she is elated at her student's accomplishments. I've never seen her so happy and fulfilled .

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Nah uh ! I had two in at the same time for 3 years. $50,xxx.00 + $48,xxx.00 trumps your one. & .

    Seriously, one of the big reasons that both my kids went to the schools they did was also due to very small student/faculty ratios.
    My daughter wants to write for television. It's hard as hell to get in the door in that, but she did study at a college with longstanding links to the theater, movies and TV worlds, she took all their hardest screenwriting courses, she did what she could. Now it's up to her, she can save her money and move to LA and try her damnedest.

    Should I have insisted she go to a cheaper college and major in something practical? I don't think so, because my own experience tells me that a fine education in the liberal arts prepares you for many things and it might take a while to find out what you're really intended to do. As long as I don't have to support her past letting her live here rent-free for a while, I think it's fine. Of course, check in with me in five years and see what I think then.

    But if I had had two kids like you, I might have thought differently.
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    The federal government has just convened a panel to define "success" for community college students with the intent of possibly using that definition to determine federal funding. Universities are taking note of that as well, because guess who is next. And all of that basically started because the same issues that affect for-profit schools affect colleges as well. The bottom line is that government does not want to give loans to people who aren't going to be able to pay them back or grants to people who aren't likely to graduate, regardless of the type of school. This makes sense. But oy, the implications.
    And apparently I am not alone in thinking so, going by predictions for what is coming in higher ed funding now that the election is over:

    “Under a Republican Congress, Pell will certainly be revisited and reconsidered in a substantial way,” said Moran, of AASCU. Whether that means raising eligibility standards, cutting the maximum award level or drastically reshaping the Pell program remains to be seen.

    Members of Congress in both parties are looking more closely at the return on investment for federal dollars and may be dissatisfied with what they see. While Democrats have thus far focused on for-profit colleges, there is the potential for them -- and, more likely, for Republicans -- to consider what they’re getting for all those billions of dollars invested in Pell, and billions more invested elsewhere in higher education.

    Then, all of higher education, and not just the for-profits, will face challenges. If Congress takes a closer look at issues of quality in higher education, Moran said his association’s members – state colleges -- as well as community colleges and historically black colleges and universities are “going to run into political hurdles.” A lobbyist for private colleges said the same could be said for some independent institutions, some of which have high sticker prices and low graduation rates.


    http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/11/02/election

    Our old friend Richard Vedder speaks: http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovatio...&utm_medium=en
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    However, and I'm not directing this at you, what I take exception to is the mentality that slackers get degrees in art. Anyone who thinks that should try on an art major's schedule and work load for a week or so. Then tell me how easy it is.:.
    I don't think slackers get degrees at all. I would never say that art is an easy degree - I majored in journalism and graphic design. My design classes were 10 times more difficult than the journalism classes. No tests, no absolute answers, constant critiques, impossible-to-please professors and it was like a gift from baby Jesus if you got a B in a major class. I loved it, though.

    If anything is a BS degree, it's the extremely general ones like communications, English or psychology/philosophy. Not because they aren't good degrees, but you get the "I dunno" students in there who picked something just to graduate.

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    I think the original poster wasn't saying art was easy, just that some art students weren't planning ahead financially for possible tough employment situations.

    I find fine arts courses to be subjective in grading, so you can get the easy A courses as well as the tough ones who never give As to art.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesperholly View Post
    If anything is a BS degree, it's the extremely general ones like communications, English or psychology/philosophy. Not because they aren't good degrees, but you get the "I dunno" students in there who picked something just to graduate.
    Generalizing much? I know people who majored in communications and English and it wasn't just so they could graduate. They were genuinely interested in the field and pursued graduate studies in their field. One of my friends majored in communications, got a Master's in communications and now works for CAIR as an Outreach and Communications director.
    "If people are looking for guarantees, they should buy appliances at Sears and stay away from human relationships."~Prancer

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