Technique question: deep edges.

[Anita18]

Trixi Shuba- The "statuesque" lady in blue.
- From overhead, it appears as if she is moving with great exactness "across the the ice". However, her mind set is that she is "carving in the ice" exactly what she wants and it is by way of the process of carving that she is taken from here to there.
- When you look at her body, her body does not change position until she wants to change the blade.
- When you look at her tracings in the ice, there is only 1 deep clear tracing from 1 edge of a 2 edged blade, not 2 parallel tracings.

Thanks for the vid! I'd never actually seen figures done in realtime. The speed at which they skate actually surprised me.

Although, I think being proficient at figures makes you more balanced over the blades and more efficient with speed a la Katia and Carolina, not necessarily a power stroker and deep leaner like Patrick Chan. I think that leaning a lot in figures might be detrimental. I've heard that blades for figures are sharpened much flatter than for freestyle, is that true?

Though the speed they do have looks more effortless, for sure.

Here's an example I posted on another forum a while back:

This is all most obvious in ice dance, especially compulsory dances.


Here's a typical novice-level team doing the Rocker Foxtrot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFaoOEyOAqo

That's about the average edge depth and knee softness that you would expect to see for this dance.

If you search for videos of "Rocker Foxtrot" you'll find examples of a whole range of ability.

Here are the 1992 Junior World champions performing the same dance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rbiMGiD3TQ

Look at the lean over the blades, the size and shape of the curves, how far and how smoothly they bend their knees.
See the difference?

WOW the second vid is so cool! I want to learn how to skate like that. The lean and speed look like fun!

One of the reasons I love doing ice dance is because the coaches break it down to the endth degree. I had a lesson with a different coach from my normal one last night and I loved how much detail he went into. Because it actually helps.

I went skating for the first time in a LONG time (so I'm already rusty) and paid particular attention to my body positions and blade balance while stroking. Already I was starting to nitpick why holding a forward outside on my right foot was more comfortable than the left. I can see how one can get really detailed with it.

[Doubletoe]

can someone explain the "pushing" and "pulling" of edges on cross-cuts a bit more please? I'd like to try it out tonight but I'm not sure what to try

OK, let's imagine you are doing right-over-left back crossovers in a clockwise circle. Once you cross over with the right foot, you transfer all of your weight onto the right foot push against the inside edge of the blade. Then you reach into the circle with your left foot, grab the ice with your left blade and pull it towards you. So basically, the outside foot pushes and the inside foot pulls. In order to keep from falling into the circle while doing this, you need to lean a little outside of the circle and press your outside shoulder down.

Very interesting topic !

We've heard that some of the best known skaters for edges are also extremely quiet on the ice. Like Gordeeva and Sato who are said as having great SS and edges.
And at the same time it's said that a deep and strong edge results in the well known "growling" which basically is a noise !

So I'm wondering how it is possible to have deep and strong edges that are supposed to provoc noise (the growling) while still skating totally silently ?
I mean if there is no growling doesn't this mean that the edges are too flat and/or to light therefore not efficient enough ?

I think silent edges and "growling" (or "ripping") edges are both correct, as long as the skater is on the correct part of the blade and the blade is doing what it's supposed to be doing. I've been on the ice with both Michelle Kwan and Carolina Kostner and I remember noticing that Michelle's blades made a loud ripping sound when she skated down the length of the ice, whereas Carolina's blades were pretty silent. I notice my blades make a ripping sound when I push on the side of the blade and let that foot reach its maximum distance from my body (which I was encouraged to do on the inside slide chasse move), whereas my blades are more silent when I stay aligned over the blade, even if I'm on a deep edge (more typical of figures, where ankle bend and pressing into the ice are essential).

[IceAlisa]

I've always admired Arakawa's edges. And of course, Patrick Chan.

[Maximillian]

Judging by the disparity of opinions about which skaters do and do not have deep edges, I would hedge a bet that your guess OP is about as good as anyone else's on this board.

The causality of deep edging/speed is obviously disproved by Kwan if one is to believe that she has great edges. Kostner skates fast, like Slutskaya, this does not mean that either have good edges, this means that both skaters skate fast.

[ks777]

To me, Kozuka's skating is much more beautiful to watch than Chan. Chan does do more difficult moves but I don't see much lean on his edges. I'd prefer Kozuka's edges. Much more simpler but I just love the way Kozuka shows off his beautiful edges.
Patrick is more of a school figure type skater and Kozuka is more like a Janet Lynn type, I think.

[gkelly]

The causality of deep edging/speed is obviously disproved by Kwan if one is to believe that she has great edges. Kostner skates fast, like Slutskaya, this does not mean that either have good edges, this means that both skaters skate fast.

In those cases, I would say both had good edges and they skated fast. But that doesn't disprove your point, which could be supported by saying that Surya Bonaly also skated fast.

Some speed comes from technique and some comes from athleticism and the amount of muscle power the skater puts into each stroke.

To me, Kozuka's skating is much more beautiful to watch than Chan.

Fair enough, as a point of personal aesthetic preference.

[quote] Chan does do more difficult moves but I don't see much lean on his edges. I'd prefer Kozuka's edges. [quote]

I'd say they both have very good edges, but I fail to see that Chan gets less lean than Kozuka.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-7H60-jJyg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM2kx0TWB4A

Compare the connecting moves preceding each of the jumps, or the step sequences.

[briancoogaert]

To me, Kozuka's skating is much more beautiful to watch than Chan. Chan does do more difficult moves but I don't see much lean on his edges. I'd prefer Kozuka's edges. Much more simpler but I just love the way Kozuka shows off his beautiful edges.
Patrick is more of a school figure type skater and Kozuka is more like a Janet Lynn type, I think.

Kozuka has very good edges, so has Chan.
The impressive thing in Chan's skating is the abitlity to move his feet. He is always on the good part of his blade. Amazing !

[Aussie Willy]

Kozuka has very good edges, so has Chan.
The impressive thing in Chan's skating is the abitlity to move his feet. He is always on the good part of his blade. Amazing !

Well that is the thing I find so mesmorising about watching Chan. His blade is frictionless on the ice and moves with a fluidity that very few skaters have. He certainly is on the right part of the blade. And he can do complicated turns very quickly with the same speed and flow in and out.

[Doubletoe]

Well that is the thing I find so mesmorising about watching Chan. His blade is frictionless on the ice and moves with a fluidity that very few skaters have. He certainly is on the right part of the blade. And he can do complicated turns very quickly with the same speed and flow in and out.

Mesmerizing is the right word to describe Patrick's stroking. I was ice monitor on practice ice last year at Worlds and that was my first chance to see Patrick's skating up close and see what the big deal was. I have seen Kozuka up close many times and I agree that his skating skills are among the best in the world, but watching Patrick step onto the ice and skate away was like watching a dolphin jump into the water and start swimming. There was just something about the way he moved across the ice that I had never seen before.

[Anita18]

Mesmerizing is the right word to describe Patrick's stroking. I was ice monitor on practice ice last year at Worlds and that was my first chance to see Patrick's skating up close and see what the big deal was. I have seen Kozuka up close many times and I agree that his skating skills are among the best in the world, but watching Patrick step onto the ice and skate away was like watching a dolphin jump into the water and start swimming. There was just something about the way he moved across the ice that I had never seen before.

Totally. And it's rare that someone that young and relatively new to the scene has such good edge quality. He's always had terrific basics. Even among ice dancers, I've never seen anyone put each edge to use the way Patrick does.

[immoimeme]

Following a previous link I came across this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDdLX...eature=related

Mrs Graftstrom's comments are quite interesting. Watching this video took me way way back!

But I remember seeing two skaters doing figures during practices: Viacheslav Zagorodniuk, at 1998 Worlds, and Todd Eldredge, 2001 Worlds exhibition. I was so fascinated watching Todd, because I was actually real close to the ice and could see what he was doing, that when my all-time fav Plushenko showed up I was loath to look away!

Well. LOL. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion...

[Eman_fan]

As many of the previou posters have metioned dancer have much deeper edges because that majority of their programs are turns and edge work. Much of the basis of dance step come from figures and therefore you need a deep edge to make a figure 8. If you don't work the edges properly you won't get around the circle or you will have flats in you circle. One think that allows dancer to get deeper edges than the other diciplines is the fact that their boots are cut lower. Dance boots generally don't come up as high on the ankle therefore allowing more freedom of movement of the ankle and the ability to create deeper edges.

[Aussie Willy]

You don't need a deep edge to do a figure 8, unless it is a very tight one. But you do need to be on the correct edge to do it.

Agree about dance boots though. I love mine because they allow me to get ankle flexion. However even when I had freestyle boots, I never did the top hook up so I could get ankle flexion.

[Eman_fan]

You don't need a deep edge to do a figure 8, unless it is a very tight one. But you do need to be on the correct edge to do it.

Agree about dance boots though. I love mine because they allow me to get ankle flexion. However even when I had freestyle boots, I never did the top hook up so I could get ankle flexion.

You do need a deep edge to do a figure loop, which is probably why I couldn't do them very well. I was constantly getting new skates and my boots were never very broken in. It made it very difficult to work edges with stiff boots.

You can adjust the stiffness by not doing up the top hook but if you are doing triples and quads you want to hae sufficient ankle support.

[bardtoob]

Watch Trixie's complusories followed by the 1988 Men's complusories. Trixie would have destroyed them.

... or school figured them.

[spikydurian]

Was lurking in the archives to read something of interest and found this!
What a gem. Still don't quite fully comprehend 'deep edges' but getting there.

[Golightly]

To better "get" deep edges, you might want to look at the Tango Romantica the dancers did at the Olympics, especially the top three.

[aliceanne]

The rhumba choctaws in the short dance this season required very deep edges. Check out the knee bend of the top teams and the angle of their bodies in regards to the ice, it is about 45 degrees.

[sap5]

-Katia's technique is analogous to a car entering a corner without applying too much braking, relying primarily on the natural resistance ("stickiness" in motor talk) of the tires to make the turn. From the POV of energy conservation, this is more efficient. Two caveats, however.

First, this technique is much easier to do if the speed into the turn is relatively slower. Assuming equivalent initial speed, however, it is also easier to accomplish if the object is less heavy (f=ma, which is why sports cars tend to be small). As a general rule, for a male skater to match Katia's efficiency of technique at equivalent speed, he would need to be equipped with a much bigger, sharper blade (which is why larger cars, such as SUVs, have huge tires, all other factors being equal).

Second, Katia's technique has very little margin for error; it takes only the smallest miscalculation to lose control, particularly at higher speeds and greater weights (imagine trying to swerve around an onrushing signpost without using your brakes).

While Katia's technique can be seen as elegant, it may not be universally applicable. I would surmise that this may be why deep edges are generally favored in skating.

Sergei had the same technique as Katia, and his blades were not unusually big.

I think you're right in that this style of skating requires extreme precision, as you are essentially skating on only a very small part of the blade all the time.

[Willowway]

Going back to the question of singles skaters with good edges, I just happened to note during Stars On Ice this year that Joannie Rochette's edges were deeper than the usual singles skater - impressive. I think now that I'm an adult beginner I spend a lot of any live show watching the skaters from the knee down!