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  1. #21
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    dealing with ice coverage, does that mean mirai nagasu has deep edges?
    i know her knees arent the best but i think they're quite soft in jump takeoffs

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    Quote Originally Posted by icellist View Post
    dealing with ice coverage, does that mean mirai nagasu has deep edges?
    i know her knees arent the best but i think they're quite soft in jump takeoffs
    Mirai has decent edges. Not as good as an ice dancer (which is to be expected), but deepness of edge doesn't always have to do with speed. It also has to do with just controlling the blade so you don't scratch your toepicks and you stay on the right part of the blade while skating.

    Anyone at the international competitive level has to have pretty good knees. The ice doesn't have spring in itself so you have to create it by having soft knees. I think Nobunari Oda has some of the softest knees in freestyle skating.

  3. #23

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    Matt Savoie - I remember Dick Button praising him saying he was "kind to the ice."

    I personally have incredibly deep edges, which is about the only positive thing I can say about the very limited skating skills that I have. Of course, the only reason they are so deep is because I weigh so much! I went skating twice at Snoopy's Home Ice in Santa Rosa this summer, and as I went back around the rink I was able to spot my own canyon-like tracks.

  4. #24

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    I have been impressed with the Japanese skater's deep edges -- Kozuka, Takahashi, Asada for example as well as Yuka Sato of course. I've often thought they must have great basic skills training in Japan. In contrast, in the US, some skaters have beautiful deep edges and others do not. Michelle Kwan, for example, has beautiful edges but Sasha Cohen skates on flats.

  5. #25
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    If you want to see edge skating look at JOHN CURRY. Not only does he have angle of the body(lean) but the body line to show them off!

  6. #26
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    Very interesting topic !

    We've heard that some of the best known skaters for edges are also extremely quiet on the ice. Like Gordeeva and Sato who are said as having great SS and edges.
    And at the same time it's said that a deep and strong edge results in the well known "growling" which basically is a noise !

    So I'm wondering how it is possible to have deep and strong edges that are supposed to provoc noise (the growling) while still skating totally silently ?
    I mean if there is no growling doesn't this mean that the edges are too flat and/or to light therefore not efficient enough ?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifice View Post
    Very interesting topic !

    We've heard that some of the best known skaters for edges are also extremely quiet on the ice. Like Gordeeva and Sato who are said as having great SS and edges.
    And at the same time it's said that a deep and strong edge results in the well known "growling" which basically is a noise !

    So I'm wondering how it is possible to have deep and strong edges that are supposed to provoc noise (the growling) while still skating totally silently ?
    I mean if there is no growling doesn't this mean that the edges are too flat and/or to light therefore not efficient enough ?
    There is a difference between noises. I don't know how to explain it in english.
    A deep edge crunches. While someone with bad skills will scratch.
    I don't know if it's true, but my coach always said to me : "if you hear something during your crossovers, it's because they are bad."

    I don't think Katia Gordeeva has deep edges. She has amazing skating skills, because she has speed without power, and everyhting is clean. But she is very very light.

    Usually, the deepest edges are in North american skating.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    There is a difference between noises. I don't know how to explain it in english.
    A deep edge crunches. While someone with bad skills will scratch.
    Yes I think it's true about lower level to average skaters. But at the higher level one is not expected to "scratch". However there remains a difference between skaters on the edge side. A deep edge, supposed to be better, is supposed to growl on the ice, while a light edge, not supposed to be expected if one wants to see big curves and powerfull transitions, doesn't make noise.

    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I don't know if it's true, but my coach always said to me : "if you hear something during your crossovers, it's because they are bad."
    I suppose your coach was talking about the "scratch" noise which means your are too much on the toe picks. Of course it's bad, and at that point it's not edge anymore, it's just characteristic of low level skaters who tend to fall on the wrong part of the edge. Higher level skaters don't do this mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I don't think Katia Gordeeva has deep edges. She has amazing skating skills, because she has speed without power, and everyhting is clean. But she is very very light.
    I think this is the right point.
    And I think it's impossible to be deep on the edges and skating silently at the same time.
    But how is it possible to build speed and powerfull overall skating while being light and not powerfull at all on edges ? I agree with you that Gordeeva doesn't seem to be strong or powerfull on her edges, but she for sure maintains high speed and flow / secure edges on the ice.
    So, what is it about her specific skating skill if this is not about deep and powerfull edges ? How can she get speed without it ?

    It leads me to think that there are actually two types of skating that are quite different but still very good :
    - the deep, strong edges that make the growling noise. I think it's more charasteristic of the dance teams.
    - the light type that makes no noise at all and gives the impression of the skater flying accross the ice. Gordeeva is the exemple of that "style".

    Actually these two styles would be two ways of building speed accross the ice. I find it quite surprising indeed since both ways looks totally different and even opposed (strong and deep edges vs light edges).

    Coaches don't seem to differenciate these ways of skating, they explain exercises, and usually request the skater to push hard on edges in order to go as deep as possible.
    But I've red that the deeper the edge is, the more resistance on the ice, resulting to less speed.
    So I'm kind of loss now !! Does the deep edge help to build speed or not ?

    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Usually, the deepest edges are in North american skating.
    Which skaters are characteristic of it ?

  9. #29
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    I think Amanda Dobbs is another skater with nice edges. Just watch her US nationals SP! She has very clean and crsip edging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by modern_muslimah View Post
    Are there any current ladies skaters who are not ice dancers with deep edges? It doesn't seem like ladies skaters are noted for this.
    Carolina Kostner. Her edges are
    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe.

  11. #31

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    You use your edges to gain speed. If you're doing them right, you build speed with your edges. That "growl" is you pushing correctly, and if you're doing it right, as you go down the ice doing, say, an edge exercise, you're gaining speed as you go, not losing it.
    Use Yah Blinkah!

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    You use your edges to gain speed. If you're doing them right, you build speed with your edges. That "growl" is you pushing correctly, and if you're doing it right, as you go down the ice doing, say, an edge exercise, you're gaining speed as you go, not losing it.
    Edge pulls on one foot is a good example.

    Since we're seeing more one-foot footwork in footwork sequences this year from the elite skaters, it's useful to see who can maintain (or even gain) speed on the edges of one blade versus losing speed.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifice View Post
    Which skaters are characteristic of it ?
    About the deepest edges from North AMerica, I read it in a book about Figure Skating History. that there were different points of view. And that usually, edges were in Great Britain and North America, vs. style, ballet in Russia, and choreography in France, for example.
    Maybe my summary is too small : it's probably much more difficult to explain !!!

    IMO, Kurt Browning is the perfect north american skater. His edges were very good. Joannie Rochette is also a good example.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by officialcoach View Post
    If you want to see edge skating look at JOHN CURRY. Not only does he have angle of the body(lean) but the body line to show them off!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXJqsoFwUic

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    Nice deep edging of ice dancers is precisely why IMO, their spins (& footwork for that matter) are far more watchable than pairs skaters. Some pairs nowadays have fairly shallow edges when spinning, centering problems and timing problems (sbs spins).

    Someone not mentioned here that I thought had ncie deep edges, was Kimmie Meissner. One of the only features i admired about her actually. (shame about the arms). While Mao's skating skills are certainly above the average ladies I don't think she's all the way there yet. There are some elements, like spirals for example where she could build a bit more power and skate on a deeper edge to make them faster (esp after the change of edge). But ever since working with Tarasova she doesn't skate on flat edges anymore...same with Cohen in 03.

    Currently someone i always think of with deepest edges, is Savchenko. Deepest, most lilty knees i've ever seen in a pairs lady skater- her forward stroking has a nice lean off the vertical, and the amazingly deep change of edge spread eagle is to die for!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifice View Post
    I suppose your coach was talking about the "scratch" noise which means your are too much on the toe picks. Of course it's bad, and at that point it's not edge anymore, it's just characteristic of low level skaters who tend to fall on the wrong part of the edge. Higher level skaters don't do this mistake.
    Alban preaubert, imo has a bit of this 'scratching' problem.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifice View Post
    It leads me to think that there are actually two types of skating that are quite different but still very good :
    - the deep, strong edges that make the growling noise. I think it's more charasteristic of the dance teams.
    - the light type that makes no noise at all and gives the impression of the skater flying accross the ice. Gordeeva is the exemple of that "style".

    Actually these two styles would be two ways of building speed accross the ice. I find it quite surprising indeed since both ways looks totally different and even opposed (strong and deep edges vs light edges).

    Coaches don't seem to differenciate these ways of skating, they explain exercises, and usually request the skater to push hard on edges in order to go as deep as possible.
    But I've red that the deeper the edge is, the more resistance on the ice, resulting to less speed.
    So I'm kind of loss now !! Does the deep edge help to build speed or not ?
    Katia seemed to have very good balance on her blades to help her speed. Pushing/pulling on deep edges is one way to BUILD speed, but another way is to not catch the edge on anything that could slow you down - the latter method was how Katia did it, IMO.

    My coach, when he was telling me about pulling the edge, told me that I needed to lean forward more on my forward crossovers. Wait, you say, isn't that how one catches a toepick? Sure, if you lean too much. You'll feel your pick scratch when you hit that point, but right behind the toepick is an area where the blade has the shallowest edges, and when you skate on that area, it'll give you the least resistance on the ice. IMO this was how Katia skated with so much speed and smoothness, but not with a lot of power. Instead of making the speed and working hard to always build it, she was efficient on her feet and kept herself from slowing down.

    It's probably not a coincidence that my coach back then used to be a Russian ice dancer.

    At any rate, you can either work deep edges all the time a la Patrick Chan to be fast or be efficient and balance on your blades to prevent friction from slowing you down like Katia. Either method works, but you have to do it right each time. Sitting on a deep edge can definitely slow you down!

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    On average, definitely.



    It certainly gives them an advantage. Just ask Patrick Chan.
    LOL Skating with so called 'Deep Edges' will give you lots of brownnie points with the judges. Of course most casual viewers will probably be scratching their head, 'what???'

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    About the deepest edges from North AMerica, I read it in a book about Figure Skating History. that there were different points of view. And that usually, edges were in Great Britain and North America, vs. style, ballet in Russia, and choreography in France, for example.
    Maybe my summary is too small : it's probably much more difficult to explain !!!

    IMO, Kurt Browning is the perfect north american skater. His edges were very good. Joannie Rochette is also a good example.
    It's a summary but it make sense and overall it's close to the reality indeed.
    The russian balletic style can explain their approach of edges work.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    Katia seemed to have very good balance on her blades to help her speed. Pushing/pulling on deep edges is one way to BUILD speed, but another way is to not catch the edge on anything that could slow you down - the latter method was how Katia did it, IMO.

    My coach, when he was telling me about pulling the edge, told me that I needed to lean forward more on my forward crossovers. Wait, you say, isn't that how one catches a toepick? Sure, if you lean too much. You'll feel your pick scratch when you hit that point, but right behind the toepick is an area where the blade has the shallowest edges, and when you skate on that area, it'll give you the least resistance on the ice. IMO this was how Katia skated with so much speed and smoothness, but not with a lot of power. Instead of making the speed and working hard to always build it, she was efficient on her feet and kept herself from slowing down.

    It's probably not a coincidence that my coach back then used to be a Russian ice dancer.

    At any rate, you can either work deep edges all the time a la Patrick Chan to be fast or be efficient and balance on your blades to prevent friction from slowing you down like Katia. Either method works, but you have to do it right each time. Sitting on a deep edge can definitely slow you down!

    I totally get what you mean and it actually confirms what I thought without having any "official" theorical answer.
    This is two methods and I believe it's up to each skater to find the way that works better.
    Coaches (western coaches at least) tend to teach the deep edges work. Wonder why they don't also point the balance option and the need to be on the right part of the blade early in the learning process ...

    Gordeeva's way of maintening the speed allows her to look effortless (since she actually doesn't put too much physical effort pushing on her blades) and gives the impression of her flying since she is very light on the ice.
    I got the same impression from Berheznaya and Sikharulidze, only that they seemed to be a little "heavier" on the edges.

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