View Poll Results: Who is most guilty for Octomom's last 12 implanted embryos ridiculousness?

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  • Suleman: Hellbent on a litter, and this doctor could not have prevented it

    7 6.60%
  • Dr. K: Ignored Suleman's mental issues and his own oath in implanting a dangerous # of embryos

    23 21.70%
  • Both: A perfect storm of baby fever and carelessless

    74 69.81%
  • Kate Gosselin ;-0

    9 8.49%
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  1. #1
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    Octomom: Who's to blame?

    The doctor of Nadya Suleman, better known as Octomom, is in a hearing this week to determine the fate of his medical license. Article

    Kamrava "will say she demanded all 12 embryos and, because it was the weekend, he did not know what to do," said California Deputy Attorney General Judith Alvarado. "But he knew it was unsafe."
    The Medical Board of California's complaint said the doctor should have referred Suleman to a mental health physician after she repeatedly returned to him for treatments shortly after each of her pregnancies.
    Suleman has freely admitted that she was mentally "ill" in her extreme pursuit of having babies, and now regrets the situation she's put herself and her children in. (While of course thankful for her children themselves.) An aside: I'm still floored that these children were born without visible birth defects, and to this day appear healthy and normal. Do any of them even have eye glasses? (Common preemie side effect)

    What do you think? Is the doctor more guilty, or is Suleman? Was she mentally ill enough that he, her physician, should have gotten others involved? Or was her obsession such that he had to go through with the implanting of the dozen babies?

  2. #2
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    Why is his license in jeopardy?

    It is a legal procedure, isn't it? No physical harm resulted? (although there's a chance of that in any legal medical procedure, but the fact that this one was successful should speak for him)

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    I think there has been ethical issues since the beginning of the saga. And the article states that his peers believe that he should have referred her to mental health prior to implantation of the last 8, if not earlier ones.
    I believe that licenses can be suspended for unethical behavior. And if his peers determine that he was negligent in recognizing mental illness, he could be found as not practicing competent medical care.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefcake View Post
    What do you think? Is the doctor more guilty, or is Suleman? Was she mentally ill enough that he, her physician, should have gotten others involved? Or was her obsession such that he had to go through with the implanting of the dozen babies?
    I think it's a complex issue and I don't know enough about the licensing restrictions etc etc to say whether he was negligent in any way. But I don't think that any patient's obsession or mental illness 'forces' a doctor to go through with implanting a litter. To blame this on her from a medical standards point of view is rather absurd. It might be different if she was hitting up different doctors for each pregnancy and was hiding her history, but she kept going back to the same doc, right?
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    I think the doctor should pay the welfare bill. One or two of the preemies has a cleft palate. I've seen pictures of some of them with glasses
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    I don't know all the details, I said both, but I would put more on her. She couldn't properly care for the children she already had, so even if her intention was to have only one more child, that was irresponsible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norlite View Post
    Why is his license in jeopardy?

    It is a legal procedure, isn't it? No physical harm resulted? (although there's a chance of that in any legal medical procedure, but the fact that this one was successful should speak for him)
    Implanting large numbers of embryos (as in more than three at a time) is only supposed to be done in extremely rare cases, for women who have had previous failed attempts at IVF. Nadya was the exact opposite....she had had a successful previous pregnancy with a multiple birth from IVF. What the doctor did was way outside the guidelines, AND he was dealing with an obviously mentally ill patient. So....mostly his fault, I would say. He could have just said "no" and referred her to another doctor. But he implanted TWELVE because "it was the weekend" (I agree, ). She probably was badgering the crap out of him and he caved. But he should have recognized that she already had too many kids to deal with and wasn't in her right mind.

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    The good doctor could have said, "No."
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    I thought I read that an ethical number would have been two. If so, he should be convicted of something. However, I wouldn't want her to think that because he is guilty, she is not.

  10. #10
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    Both of them. She shouldn't have asked, and he should have said "no".

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lacey View Post
    I thought I read that an ethical number would have been two. If so, he should be convicted of something. However, I wouldn't want her to think that because he is guilty, she is not.
    ITA. The doctor violated medical guidelines, as established by the relevant medical association in which he was a member (the Society for Reproductive Medicine). The guidelines are there for a reason. Implanting that many embryos is dangerous for the mother as well.

    As to how much Nadya is to blame, that's a difficult question. Mental illness can strip away all rationality, reasoning, and impulse control. Was hers that severe? I don't know.

    Overall, I'd put more of the blame on the doctor though.

  12. #12

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    What does it being the weekend have to do with his decision? Even people who aren't doctors would have a pretty good idea that implanting 12 embryos is probably not a really smart idea, no matter what day of the week it is.
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  13. #13

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    My instincts blame the doctor much more than the patient. He is supposed to be trained at recognizing problems (both the dangers of implanting 12 and the mental illness).

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazpacho View Post
    ITA. The doctor violated medical guidelines, as established by the relevant medical association in which he was a member (the Society for Reproductive Medicine). The guidelines are there for a reason. Implanting that many embryos is dangerous for the mother as well.

    As to how much Nadya is to blame, that's a difficult question. Mental illness can strip away all rationality, reasoning, and impulse control. Was hers that severe? I don't know.

    Overall, I'd put more of the blame on the doctor though.
    ITA. And I don't find the argument that she would have just found another doctor persuasive. So what? Then THAT doctor would be the one whose license was in jeopardy.
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  15. #15
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    I blamed Kate.
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazpacho View Post
    ITA. The doctor violated medical guidelines, as established by the relevant medical association in which he was a member (the Society for Reproductive Medicine). The guidelines are there for a reason. Implanting that many embryos is dangerous for the mother as well.

    As to how much Nadya is to blame, that's a difficult question. Mental illness can strip away all rationality, reasoning, and impulse control. Was hers that severe? I don't know.

    Overall, I'd put more of the blame on the doctor though.
    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan View Post
    My instincts blame the doctor much more than the patient. He is supposed to be trained at recognizing problems (both the dangers of implanting 12 and the mental illness).
    The doctor's actions were far outside the norm in his field, and against his field's medical training and guidelines. While the mom may or may not have been mentally ill, the DOCTOR was competent, and yet against the rules of his field of practice, did this. He should absolutely be in trouble re: his license to practice.

    That does not necessarily mean that he has any civil or criminal culpability under the law. He might; he might not. Separate issue. But it does mean that he may at least have his license to practice medicine suspended, and he could have it pulled.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    I blamed Kate.
    You know, that's not the craziest thing in the world. "Reality" tv is probably a little to blame in all of this. Didn't Octomom say something about wanting to have a show? Or was that after the births? Or am I imagining the whole thing?

    Anyway.... I think the doctor should not have done it. The request was extreme and he knew it.

  18. #18
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    Lots of talk about Nadya, her mental health and her "irresponsibility". But not all of her kids were through in vitro, right? She had a partner who fathered her earlier children?

    So who is the father and is he involved in the lives of those children, both physically as well as financially?

    Or is the female taking all the heat and the male gets off scott free?



    Quote Originally Posted by Beefcake View Post
    Octomom: Who's to blame?
    Have you found blame improves people's lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by KikiSashaFan View Post
    She couldn't properly care for the children she already had, so even if her intention was to have only one more child, that was irresponsible.
    Do you have links to articles about this? Or is it just a personal opinion?


    Quote Originally Posted by KikiSashaFan View Post
    She couldn't properly care for the children she already had, so even if her intention was to have only one more child, that was irresponsible.
    Like irresponsibility has never happened before on planet Earth in regards to people bringing a new life into our world?

    Quote Originally Posted by susan6 View Post
    ...AND he was dealing with an obviously mentally ill patient.
    Quote Originally Posted by susan6 View Post
    She probably was badgering the crap out of him and he caved.
    Could you provide us with the facts that back up these statements? Or are you gossiping?

    Quote Originally Posted by Really View Post
    The good doctor could have said, "No."
    Does anyone know what the legalities are in the health care profession as to when a doctor can decide for the patient in regards to what they want? When can a doctor be sued for refusing treatment? (And when can they NOT be sued?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazpacho View Post
    Mental illness can strip away all rationality, reasoning, and impulse control.
    Again, I'm interested in links to articles that state Nadya is mentally unstable. If this is the case, why were her previous children not taken from her?

    Or are people playing armchair psychiatrists?
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Lots of talk about Nadya, her mental health and her "irresponsibility". But not all of her kids were through in vitro, right? She had a partner who fathered her earlier children?

    So who is the father and is he involved in the lives of those children, both physically as well as financially?

    Or is the female taking all the heat and the male gets off scott free?


    I was under the impression that all her kids were through in vitro

    ETA: yes, they were all IVF babies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadya_Suleman#Children

    So she is taking all the heat because it was all her idea.

    She was married previously, but did not have any children. Wikipedia indicates that the marriage fell apart in part due to her inability to conceive (they divorced in 2006, but had separated in 2000, before her first child was conceived).
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Could you provide us with the facts that back up these statements? Or are you gossiping?
    Instead of just reading this thread, check the article:

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/cele...iref=allsearch

    The Medical Board of California's complaint said the doctor should have referred Suleman to a mental health physician after she repeatedly returned to him for treatments shortly after each of her pregnancies.

    "The whole series of contacts raise red flags with the stability of the patient herself and the overall intent of the patient," said Fujimoto.
    Shame on the Medical Board of California and Dr. Fujimoto for their gossiping.

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