Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 159
  1. #81
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,332
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    I'd rather see synchronized skating as a team sport in the games.
    Yeah ! I'm not fond of synchro, but I'd also rather see synch skating at the Games.

  2. #82
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest." - Ottavio Cinquanta
    Posts
    1,635
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Skate Talker View Post
    About the number of Gold medals available for figure skating - it has always bugged me that there are so many available to gymnastics, swimming, track, speed skating etc. that lead to frequent multiple-gold medalists.
    I agree. There should be more than one event for skaters.

  3. #83

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    NY/NJ
    Posts
    4,924
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    32911
    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    I see it more likely being like 4CC. It was started to be the rest of the world's answer to Europeans but for a long time most teams sent their B-skaters and winning 4CC wasn't considered that prestigious.
    But that's because "Four Continent Champion" is a random title. "Olympic Gold Medalist" already has a lot of built-in prestige.

    That said, I'm torn - I like the idea of giving more skaters opportunities for medals, but it seems like skaters need a lot of time to "build up" to, and peak at, each event. It's not clear to me that they will have anything left in the tank after competing in their own event. It might just end up being a splatfest. :/
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  4. #84
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    1,422
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    In gymnastics they see the same routines over again and no-one seems to mind.
    Gymnastics routines are a few seconds to at most 90 seconds or so, not 4 minutes. And, yes, it does get less interesting seeing them the second and third time over. I liked it better when the prelims were a different routine.

    I don't get the logic in this [proliferation of skating gold medalists would really devalue the significance of the individual medals].
    Think marketing. Now, only a small handful of skaters can be introduced or billed as Olympic gold medalists and it is an uber big deal. Anything that increases the supply makes the product worth less (ECON 101).

    So presumably you're also embarrassed for all those gymnasts who got medals in their team event.
    Yes. It seem totally lame to me when a guy on the team who contributed one or two scores to the total is described as an Olympic champion.

    The point is that if individual medals were given for individual events and a combined medal given the skaters would have to skate their sp and lp's all over again to get the medal given for the combined event.
    This is exactly how it works in Alpine skiing, for example. They don't just add the skiier's times from the downhill and slalom events and hand out another medal. The downhill event is entirely separate from the downhill portion of the combined event. In a team skating event, they could carry over individual scores from either the SP or the free, but would still need to add at least one more skate for the team event. This is an IOC requirement, not something the ISU can decide.

    Pairs and men don't train their gala progs while dance and ladies are happening - they go out and enjoy the Olys.
    Or, if the Games are close enough, they go home in between.

    I've always wondered what it would look like if skating had its equivalent of an all-around champion, with each couple doing a pairs program, a dance, and singles programs. I wonder how compelling the skating would be - a lot of double jumps, probably.

    But that's because "Four Continent Champion" is a random title. "Olympic Gold Medalist" already has a lot of built-in prestige.
    I think the more relevant comparison for 4CC would be European Champion. The European title still means something because it has tradition and because the best European skaters still compete if they can. Since 4CC covers such a huge geographic area, it is always going to be geographically inconvenient for either the Asian or North American countries. In addition to the longer travel, it is scheduled closer to Worlds than Europeans, making it even harder for skaters to do both well. It isn't prestigious enough for most skaters from farther away to risk their readiness for Worlds, so its fields of competitors will always be diluted (which it turn does nothing to add to the prestige of the title).
    Last edited by Susan M; 10-19-2010 at 11:51 PM.

  5. #85
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,188
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    43796
    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    Also don't buy the line that the skaters will be too tired. Obviously they'd need a day or 2 to regroup after the individual competitions, but heck if gymnasts can do it so can skaters. Last time I checked they're trained athletes. I imagine they'll all find a way to adjust to an extra day of competition.
    There are two differences between gymnastics and figure skating that could impact the skaters in a team competition:

    1. Each "discipline" (Men/Women) has its own team vs. individual events, and they happen simultaneously over the course of the Olympics. This proposed team event is cross-discipline.
    2. The events are sequenced to build, and the team competition becomes the qualifier for the individual events. There is no overlap between individual and team events.

    To apply this to figure skating, would the team event come first, with each skater performing, regardless of discipline, and then skate the individual events? As it is, there are only a couple of days in which there is no skating between Opening and Closing ceremonies, which would mean a very compressed schedule for the team event and/or more than one discipline's individual events on a given day and out of prime time.

    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    Yes of course it would be dominated by Russia US Canada, but so what - several Olympic competitions are dominated by the top countries (women's hockey anyone?) but that doesn't stop it from being good competition and fun to watch, while giving those countries not in the top 3 incentive to develop their programs.
    I would much prefer Synchro, but there are only a handful of countries that are dominant in that discipline, too: Finland and Sweden, then US and Canada, with Russia and Germany in the next tier. They could limit it to one team per country and six-ten teams altogether, but that would just stop Finland from getting two of the three medals.

    I also like the idea of medals for the short programs - a bit like gymnastics individual apparatus medals. Some gymnasts are just better at one piece of apparatus than they are on the others. Well some skaters are "short program" skaters, and some always skate a better long, so let them get a medal for their specialty like the gymnasts do.
    I would love to see this, too. It would make a better story and generate more interest. I'd rather see this than a team competition.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  6. #86
    Crazy Stalker Lady
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Busy stalking the world.
    Posts
    3,926
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    42288
    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post


    Think marketing. Now, only a small handful of skaters can be introduced or billed as Olympic gold medalists and it is an uber big deal. Anything that increases the supply makes the product worth less (ECON 101).


    Yes. It seem totally lame to me when a guy on the team who contributed one or two scores to the total is described as an Olympic champion.

    Taking the LP scores from the 2006 Olys as if they were the team competition skates Russia would have won it and Slut would have an OGM. Canada would have won in 2010 and Chan, Rochette and D&D would have OGM's. So from 2 Olympics there would 4 extra OGM's. It's hardly flooding the market.

    So in swimming and track relays each person only contributed a quarter of the work required to reach the finish. And usually some contribute more than others - are their medals lame too? And you're not really embarrassed are you? These are world class elite athletes were talking about. Olympians. Olympic Gold Medalists. And your embarrassed for them because they contributed a smaller amount in the team effort than others?

  7. #87
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    1,422
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Canada would have won in 2010 and Chan, Rochette and D&D would have OGM's.
    See, you have kind of just proved my point. It is just wrong that skaters like Chan and D&D, who delivered disappointing, error-filled performances would be handed gold medals just because they come from a country with other strong skaters, while skaters like Asada, Plushenko, Davis/White, and Pang/Tong, who outskated and outperformed them, don't get to be gold medalists.

  8. #88
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,188
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    43796
    That's why team events are about depth rather than individual strength.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  9. #89
    Crazy Stalker Lady
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Busy stalking the world.
    Posts
    3,926
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    42288
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    There are two differences between gymnastics and figure skating that could impact the skaters in a team competition:

    1. Each "discipline" (Men/Women) has its own team vs. individual events, and they happen simultaneously over the course of the Olympics. This proposed team event is cross-discipline.
    2. The events are sequenced to build, and the team competition becomes the qualifier for the individual events. There is no overlap between individual and team events.

    To apply this to figure skating, would the team event come first, with each skater performing, regardless of discipline, and then skate the individual events? As it is, there are only a couple of days in which there is no skating between Opening and Closing ceremonies, which would mean a very compressed schedule for the team event and/or more than one discipline's individual events on a given day and out of prime time.
    I must say that I don't really understand what you're trying to explain re gymnastics, however I will say that that AFAIK the team event would be LP's/FD's only and that it would be (probably) only 8 teams=32 skates and would only take one day, replacing the day that has been scheduled in the past for the CD (tho not in the same place in the schedule).

    I can imagine it coming first as a kind of "warm up" before the individual competitions. I really have trouble being convinced re any stamina issue since skaters did their LP in quali rounds at worlds, and skated 2 LP's/FD's at the GPF for years.

    I think it would be much better placed at the very beginning of the Olympics, on the first day of FS competition rather than at the end because I imagine it would be a less stressful competition than the individual ones, and I think skaters would more likely be (if not physically) mentally exhausted after the individual comps.

  10. #90
    Crazy Stalker Lady
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Busy stalking the world.
    Posts
    3,926
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    42288
    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    See, you have kind of just proved my point. It is just wrong that skaters like Chan and D&D, who delivered disappointing, error-filled performances would be handed gold medals just because they come from a country with other strong skaters, while skaters like Asada, Plushenko, Davis/White, and Pang/Tong, who outskated and outperformed them, don't get to be gold medalists.
    Ah I could go on and on about this - I think there's lots of OGM's out there from athletes who did less than some who don't have OGM's. What about in short track - the Aussie guy who cruised across the finish line because everyone else fell. I think in hockey there are team members who don't actually get to play in the gold medal game but are part of the team, and there on the bench. Synchro has 16 skaters on the ice, and I believe 4 spares - AFAIK they get gold medals along with the rest of the team. Etc etc

    But kwanfan1818 really said it best - team comp is about depth rather than individual strength.

  11. #91

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    BC
    Posts
    9,142
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    34134
    If they have to have a Team Competition (not that I really want it or anything), they should have them skate again, and not carry over their scores. Figure Skating has enough problems with perceptions of judging bias. All the top Canadian skaters, to varying degrees, were accused of being overscored in these last Games. Imagine what the reaction would be if those scores were used to determine team medals. Oh, wait. Was that supposed to be a bad thing?

    Besides, is there a sport where athletes win multiple medals for the exact same race/performance? It's not like they just add the four best times in the 100m to determine the winner of a relay race. If the answer to my question is "Yes, in gymnastics!" then maybe we should just reduce the number of medals that stupid sport gets to give its athletes.

  12. #92
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Giving awesome Russia a high-five
    Posts
    3,000
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I think the team competition is a fairly awful idea. We won't see more routines, we will just see the same ones over again. IMO, the proliferation of skating gold medalists would really devalue the significance of the individual medals. I'd find it kind of embarrassing to see skaters who couldn't even make to podium in their own event getting Olympic gold medals on the strength of their countrymen.

    Where are they going to fit this into the schedule? They already have figure skating every other day and the same rink is used for short track speed skating on the other days. Did getting rid of the CD really make room for this event?
    ITA.
    I don't really understand the need to give multiple medals, just because gymnastics does. Not all sports are set up for it. A tennis player has one trophy/medal to aim at - they don't lose the Olympic final and then have a chance to win a 'serving' gold, or a 'backhand' gold, or a 'longest rally' gold. A heptathlete doesn't get a small medal for finishing first in one of their events - there's just the overall result. An ice hockey event doesn't have more than one set of medals available. Gymnastics is different - they don't perform on all the apparatus simultaneously, whereas skaters perform all their elements etc within one programme. It's different, and one isn't necessarily better than the other.

    Besides, if the WTT in 2009 had happened to be in an Olympic year and was used as the team event, then Caroline Zhang, Rachael Flatt and Denney/Barrett would be Olympic gold medallists.
    Vaughn Chipeur, Cynthia Phaneuf and Dube/Davison would be Olympic silver medallists.
    Takahashi/Tran and the Reeds would be Olympic bronze medallists.

    And that's not including the (slightly more realistic) skaters who would also be medallists.

    To be honest, if this was an additional event at the Olympics and they also took the idea of giving small medals for the SP/LP etc, there'd probably be more people winning medals than not...

    Meh. Bad idea.
    (Not to mention the fact that losing the CD was largely down to the need to cut events...)

  13. #93
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    3,507
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by icenut84 View Post
    I don't really understand the need to give multiple medals, just because gymnastics does. Not all sports are set up for it.
    The ISU must see it differently then; otherwise they wouldn't give medals for the short program, free skate and and overall point winner.

    I wonder what their reasoning was to do it in the first place.

    The WTT was put together so quickly, it wasn't like they had the best of the best there. Some skaters were really good and others were not.

  14. #94
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    943
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Here is the interview with Chiquanta to "Rossiyskaya gazeta". He again said that ISU does what they can to promote team competetions and they hope FS will get the fifth gold medal in Sochi:
    www.rg.ru/2010/10/19/sport.html

  15. #95
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    9,948
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Before dicussing the possibility of a team competition at the Olympics, shouldn't the ISU include this in its own world championships?

  16. #96
    Crazy Stalker Lady
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Busy stalking the world.
    Posts
    3,926
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    42288
    2014 Winter Olympics may include new events
    http://sify.com/news/2014-winter-oly...0fOkfhcib.html

  17. #97
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Two-foot skating = BAD
    Posts
    20,464
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    Before dicussing the possibility of a team competition at the Olympics, shouldn't the ISU include this in its own world championships?
    I guess that's what the WTT is for but you're right.

  18. #98
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    186
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I think I have to agree. Seems strange that a team sport would be part of the OG and not part of WC. Is that why the ISU started that Team Trophy competition after WC a few years ago as a test run?

  19. #99

    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    "Winterpeg"
    Posts
    4,835
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I am assuming that the above comments refer to having the WTT during the same week/same place as the rest of the WC - to be just like the proposal for including a team championship at the OG.

    Big difference - OG is 2 full weeks of competition (plus a day?) - WC is less than 1 full week. Definitely less time for recovery for the top skaters and less time to fit it into the schedule so personally I think it is a better idea to keep the 2 events separate if they choose to go ahead with it.

    (Also cynically it gives top skaters a chance to come up with a reason why they can't compete at the WTT - harder to do if they are already there competing in the individual events.)

  20. #100

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    946
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1521

    Exclamation

    Phil Hersh provides some more details on the proposed Olympic team event, from a telephone interview with Cinquanta. http://bit.ly/d4WkRv

    Some details differ from those in the article posted by alilou.

    - Ten countries would enter, each with one skater/team per disclipline.
    - Both SP and FS would be required, with five teams eliminated after the SP.
    - Each team can make two substitutes between the SP and the FS, from the list of official Olympic substitutes. (Sub travel expenses and housing at the home federations' expense.)
    - The team part of the competition would be the first figure skating event and would last three days [second day maybe being a rest day??].

    As has been discussed previously, I have a very hard time imagining that many top contenders will go all-out in a team competition that's mere days before their individual Olympic events.

    One other bit of news: The individual-event schedule may be altered to provide an extra rest day between SP and FS, by using the type of overlapping schedule we see at Worlds, rather than the discipline-by-discipline order employed in the Olympics.

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •