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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post

    1. We won't see more routines, we will just see the same ones over again.

    2. IMO, the proliferation of skating gold medalists would really devalue the significance of the individual medals.

    3. I'd find it kind of embarrassing to see skaters who couldn't even make to podium in their own event getting Olympic gold medals on the strength of their countrymen.

    4.Did getting rid of the CD really make room for this event?
    1. In gymnastics they see the same routines over again and no-one seems to mind. It's only us uber FS fans who have some kind of irrational objection to this. And yet we watch the same routines over and over all season and love comparing how they skated at one comp vs another - why not at the Olys? I'd be quite happy to see routines repeated and be able to compare how each skater did at their earlier performance. And I bet if/when this happens the board will be just as busy with us all following pbp as usual. Comments like "if only she could have done that in the individual competition she'd by OGM now!" etc.

    2. Just like it does in gymnastics eh? So Nastia Luikin's gold medal isn't worth as much because gold medals are given for a team event? I don't get the logic in this.

    3. So presumably you're also embarrassed for all those gymnasts who got medals in their team event. I added the free skate scores from the last Olys as if these were the free skates in the team event. The total score for Canada would be 523.75, for US 515.01, for Russia 499.85. (D&D btw actually beat K&S in the free skate). For the previous Olys I imagine Russia would have been the winners. In these hypothetical scenarios D&D, Chan, Rochette, and Slut would all have OGM's. I wouldn't find that remotely embarrassing.

    4. Yes.
    Last edited by alilou; 10-18-2010 at 07:37 PM.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erica Lee View Post
    I just don't see the point in specifically creating an event for the Olympic Games that is not already a popular format at the international/national/local level (bottom-up). To me, that's not very "Olympic"... has any other sport event been a top-down Olympic creation?
    Well sort of...

    Curling has been experimenting with a 2-member team format that I totally hate. I believe it is being driven by a desire to have something simpler and quicker for an Olympic audience than the traditional curling game. (Unfortunately the Olympics also seem to be a major contributor to the almost certain change from a 10 end to 8 end curling game.)

    (Does anyone know the story for synchro diving?)

    About the number of Gold medals available for figure skating - it has always bugged me that there are so many available to gymnastics, swimming, track, speed skating etc. that lead to frequent multiple-gold medalists. On the other hand, it's not as bad as team sports where large numbers of teammates must succeed in numerous matches over many days of competition for a single gold medal. There certainly is no ideal way to address these inequities, nor should there be. It is just my "bad luck" that I live in a country that does not do so well in the sports with the most medals up for grabs. No use crying about it.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I believe the ISU eliminated the small medals at the last Congress. (There was a proposal to that effect, anyway.)
    There was a proposal, but it did not pass. The small medals are still with us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    1. In gymnastics they see the same routines over again and no-one seems to mind. It's only us uber FS fans who have some kind of irrational objection to this. And yet we watch the same routines over and over all season and love comparing how they skated at one comp vs another - why not at the Olys? I'd be quite happy to see routines repeated and be able to compare how each skater did at their earlier performance. And I bet if/when this happens the board will be just as busy with us all following pbp as usual. Comments like "if only she could have done that in the individual competition she'd by OGM now!" etc.
    I recall some once-every-four-years skating fans who saw a bit of U.S. Nats and the Olympics this last season asking me why the skaters skated the same programs at both comps. I think for the non-ubers (and we have to face that the ISU and IOC don't care a lot about us ubers because we are going to watch no matter what and we don't supply the big ratings numbers), the repetition of programs is puzzling and much more noticeable in skating due to the prominence of the music and the coordinating costumes. In gymnastics, the leotard is not a costume chosen specifically for the routine at hand and there is only music for the women's floor ex. In 2008, I watched the all around with someone who did not realize that the gymnasts used the same routines as in the team comp except when it came to floor ex when the music tipped her off. In skating, however, they are going to notice --especially if this team comp was held within in days of the individual comp. And some of them might decide that that makes it boring and turn the channel.

    Expecting skaters to have additional programs is not realistic. And bringing a so-called B team for a totally different comp is not going to happen either.

    Using scores from the existing individual comps to award a team medal might be interesting--but the structure would have to allot for country's having different numbers of entries in the disciplines. And it would only amount to an extra medal ceremony, so I doubt it would create any interest for non-uber fans. It would maybe motivate more federations to develop talent in all disciplines, though. And it might make the skaters be nicer to each other on their own team. If an extra medal had been on the line in SLC, maybe Plushy and Yags would have talked a bit nicer about each other, LOL.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    I recall some once-every-four-years skating fans who saw a bit of U.S. Nats and the Olympics this last season asking me why the skaters skated the same programs at both comps. I think for the non-ubers (and we have to face that the ISU and IOC don't care a lot about us ubers because we are going to watch no matter what and we don't supply the big ratings numbers), the repetition of programs is puzzling and much more noticeable in skating due to the prominence of the music and the coordinating costumes. In gymnastics, the leotard is not a costume chosen specifically for the routine at hand and there is only music for the women's floor ex. In 2008, I watched the all around with someone who did not realize that the gymnasts used the same routines as in the team comp except when it came to floor ex when the music tipped her off. In skating, however, they are going to notice --especially if this team comp was held within in days of the individual comp. And some of them might decide that that makes it boring and turn the channel.

    Expecting skaters to have additional programs is not realistic. And bringing a so-called B team for a totally different comp is not going to happen either.

    Using scores from the existing individual comps to award a team medal might be interesting--but the structure would have to allot for country's having different numbers of entries in the disciplines. And it would only amount to an extra medal ceremony, so I doubt it would create any interest for non-uber fans. It would maybe motivate more federations to develop talent in all disciplines, though. And it might make the skaters be nicer to each other on their own team. If an extra medal had been on the line in SLC, maybe Plushy and Yags would have talked a bit nicer about each other, LOL.

    Re all your points on the repetition of gymnastics progs vs skating progs - some valid stuff. I guess I forget to see it from the POV of the once-every-4-yrs-fan. Still the TV commentators can explain why the routines are repeated (just as they have to explain so much about FS to the casual fan). The repetition might be puzzling but it doesn't mean necessarily that people won't watch. The Olys are all about the competition, and it's another competition - maybe this creates enough interest to watch - to see how everyone does.

    ITA that new routines are not realistic, and B teams would be awful - don't understand why anyone ever thought this comp would be for B teams - it will be for the skaters who are already at the Olys (with the possible addition of a very few skaters who did not qualify for the individual events but are there to make up a country's team).

    ITA that adding scores from the individual events to get a team score and awarding medals is not interesting. At all. (I didn't mean that - I was just giving a hypothetical - using scores from the individual events as if they were the team scores - in reply to Susan M's post about the embarrassment of someone getting a gold in a team event that they didn't get in the individual event)

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    Short answer: Hell no!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Well, they could do it instead of the exhibition gala, which is an extra day of ice time without competition. Do other sports have anything similar?
    Gymnastics does. But it wouldn't be just an extra day....

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Where are they going to fit this into the schedule? They already have figure skating every other day and the same rink is used for short track speed skating on the other days. Did getting rid of the CD really make room for this event?
    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    4. Yes.
    No, not really. The CD takes up a few hours on one day. It is unlikely that the ISU or its member federations would want to have a team competition that involved just one program (i.e., LP or FD), so the team competition would likely have to be staged on two days, presumably after the individual, pairs, and dance events (replacing the Exhibition as well as the CD).

    As it is, the Ladies' Long Program normally takes place on the penultimate day of the Olympics, a Saturday, with the exhibition on the following day, before the closing ceremonies. A team competition would presumably have to take place either before all of the individual events (not likely) or after all of them. So the ladies competition would wind up being held earlier and would probably get lower TV ratings. And the second day of the team competition probably wouldn't get the same ratings that the Ladies' Long Program and the Exhibition do now. (Most people would rather watch Yuna Kim's exhibition program than Della Monica/Kokon's Long Program.)

    As if that weren't enough, consider this. Skaters who compete early in the Olympics (usually pairs and men) would have to keep training their competitive programs instead of preparing their exhibitions) for the rest of the competition. If anything, the chances of skaters suffering burnout and not competing at Worlds a month later would be increased.

    I don't see what the point of a competition that would give the likes of Gwendoline Didier and Nella Simaova the chance to compete at the Olympics and Denney/Barrett and Alena Leonova the chance for an Olympic medal, while the likes of Yuna Kim, Laura Lepisto, and (from a few years ago) Denkova/Staviski wouldn't be able to participate.

    I would *much* rather that the ISU figure out some way of making Four Continents as good in Olympic years as it has become in other seasons. But, if that isn't possible, the status quo would do just fine, thanks.

    Or to put it another way:

    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Short answer: Hell no!

  8. #68
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    Re the team comp having only the LP's - it's my understanding that that's exactly what the ISU is planning. 8 teams, 4 LP's per team = 32 skates. A little longer than approx 30 CD's but the arena is still occupied by the CD's for that one day for approx 4 hrs (of comp, and more for the skaters needing to be in the arena ahead of time) so it would be used instead for the team comp.

    Yes ladies LP would be held earlier. Presumably all comps would be moved back a day or two to fill up the CD spot which runs quite early in the schedule.

    Squibble - you say the ladies LP would get lower TV ratings if it's held (a day or 2) earlier. Why?

    Pairs and men don't train their gala progs while dance and ladies are happening - they go out and enjoy the Olys.

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    I've wanted this to happen for a long time. I am sorry, but the crying about the skaters being too tired is really ludicrous. These are the best skaters in their country, they can skate 1 more program while at the Olympics! If you want to make sure it doesn't hurt their individual chances then simply hold the team event at the end of the skating schedule. Then no one has to sacrifice their individual hopes if they should get injured. I refuse to believe someone will be too tired, these are elite athletes, 1 extra runthrough will not tire them out for a week. They skate multiple runthroughs every single day in practice. On the other hand, doing it at the beginning of the schedule would be a GREAT way to get them out in front of the crowd on Olympic ice before their individual event. What a better way to get out the jitters? I hope they do it. One other option is that anyone in the team competition can NOT be on an individual roster. This will probably never happen because many countries only have enough good skaters to fill their individual slots and so would not be able to field a team, not to mention it would mean the team competition would be taken less seriously and what a joke to have some countries 4th or 5th ranked skaters with Olympic medals while their very best go home with nothing.
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  10. #70
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    BigB08822 I like your idea of having the team comp at the beginning. I've previously thought it should be at the end. But having it at the beginning means all the top skaters get to get their LP's out there on Olympic Ice and get the jitters out under less pressure because it's the team event and so perhaps not so important to the very top skaters who are going for individual medals. It means in the individual comp they get a do-over. Stamina-wise it would be the same as the old qualifying round where everyone had to skate their LP to qualify so we know it's not particularly a problem since skating the LP twice was part of Worlds for years. Also having it at the beginning would ensure good TV ratings since anyone who has an interest in watching FS (ubers and casual fans alike) will be waiting for the competition to begin and likely want to tune-in for the first one.

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    What is the point in having people skate exactly the same programs they already did in their respective disciplines, just to have the points then added?

    It sounds like a totally idiotic idea.

    You might as well add the scores of all the athletes competing for each nation and then hand out medals to the top three.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    Squibble - you say the ladies LP would get lower TV ratings if it's held (a day or 2) earlier. Why?
    People are more likely to stay up to watch the competition if they don't have work or school the next day. Or, if it's on a Saturday afternoon in Sochi, NBC and the CBC can choose to show it either on the afternoon or in the evening.

    This year, NBC showed the Men's and Ladies' Long Programs live in the Eastern Time Zone and three hours later in the Pacific Time Zone. That meant that medalists' skates were broadcast well after 11:00 p.m. -- too late for grade-school students on a weeknight and too late for many adults who have to be at work or get their children off to school the next day.

    Of course, if the Ladies' Long Program were on a Friday, instead of, say, a Thursday, there would be less of a problem, but the NBC broadcast would still have to be in the evening rather than in the afternoon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    In these hypothetical scenarios D&D, Chan, Rochette, and Slut would all have OGM's. That would be really embarrassing.
    You would be embarrassed that those skaters got an Olympic medal, specifically gold? They all are or were at or very near the top of their discipline. How could it be embarrassing for them to win a gold medal? Get over yourself!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    What is the point in having people skate exactly the same programs they already did in their respective disciplines, just to have the points then added?

    .
    You're right. They should only ever skate their programs ONE time and that is it. Cancel the Grand Prix, everyone show up at Worlds and hope for the best. That really is idiotic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    You would be embarrassed that those skaters got an Olympic medal, specifically gold? They all are or were at or very near the top of their discipline. How could it be embarrassing for them to win a gold medal? Get over yourself!



    You're right. They should only ever skate their programs ONE time and that is it. Cancel the Grand Prix, everyone show up at Worlds and hope for the best. That really is idiotic.
    Oh dear. I can see I'm not v good at expressing sarcasm. I was trying to be sarcastic about Susan M saying she'd be embarrassed to see someone get an OGM if they hadn't won the individual event. I'm totally for these skaters mentioned to get OGM's in a team event. I will go change my post so no-one else misinterprets it.

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    Alilou was being sarcastic.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    Alilou was being sarcastic.
    Thanks
    Last edited by alilou; 10-18-2010 at 07:44 PM.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squibble View Post
    People are more likely to stay up to watch the competition if they don't have work or school the next day. Or, if it's on a Saturday afternoon in Sochi, NBC and the CBC can choose to show it either on the afternoon or in the evening.

    This year, NBC showed the Men's and Ladies' Long Programs live in the Eastern Time Zone and three hours later in the Pacific Time Zone. That meant that medalists' skates were broadcast well after 11:00 p.m. -- too late for grade-school students on a weeknight and too late for many adults who have to be at work or get their children off to school the next day.

    Of course, if the Ladies' Long Program were on a Friday, instead of, say, a Thursday, there would be less of a problem, but the NBC broadcast would still have to be in the evening rather than in the afternoon.
    But all of this applies whether the ladies LP is the day before the Gala or the day before the team event and gala. The ladies LP would still get the same number of viewers. People are not going to miss it just because it's not the last event of the skating competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    1) More Olympic skating routines! what fan wouldn't want that?!?
    People who favor quality over quantity?

    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    2) More chances for skaters to win medals! and more chances for multiple skaters in the same discipline to win the Olympic gold. The skaters would like it, and so would us the fans!
    It seems like some fans are saying they don't like it though. (We haven't heard from the skaters.)

    3) It actually may take some of the pressure off, instead of it being a 1-shot deal, at the back of skaters' heads they'll know there's another chance
    Only if the second medal is valued. Right now there is no tradition or history behind it so I doubt it's going to factor into skater's psychology of how they approach the sport.

    I see it more likely being like 4CC. It was started to be the rest of the world's answer to Europeans but for a long time most teams sent their B-skaters and winning 4CC wasn't considered that prestigious.

    4) Countries and federations will have an insentive to fully develop their skating programs across all disciplines *cough China and Japan cough*
    But why is developing skating programs across all disciplines automatically better than just picking one or two to focus on? It's certain cheaper to pick one thing to work on when you are starting at zero and worry about broadening later. Besides, if China hadn't focused so much on Pairs, maybe we never would have gotten Shen & Zhou. That would be a shame.

    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    5) So many skaters in so many sports in both the summer and winter Olympics have multiple competitions with multiple chances for gold, if they can cope with it I'm sure our skaters will too.
    Other sports are other sports. I don't know if skaters can cope with this new proposed format and whether it will have a good or bad impact on skating at the Olympics and neither does anyone else because this format does not exist at any ISU skating competition anywhere.

    Which is argument enough for me not to do it. There are plenty of sports that want to get into the Olympics with formats that already exist. Why not let one of them in instead of coming up with something just for the Olympics that hasn't proved its worth in regular competition yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    I would love to see this happen. I don't care if it's money driven or not (tho I don't necessarily believe it is - are sponsors or TV broadcasters suddenly going to pay the IOC more because there's an extra skating competition?)
    No, but advertisers will pay more if the ratings are better. I'm guessing the idea is to move the Ladies event to a day that gets lower ratings in an attempt to boost ratings on that day and then having this second event which is also supposed to get good ratings. Of course, it remains to be seen if it actually does get them, but I'm guessing that's the thought process behind the proposal.
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  19. #79
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    I just opened this trhead - I thought this was just some fan idea, not that it was actually being considered. And especially that the cancellation of the CDs might have something to do with adding a stupid Team Events?

    Not interested.
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    They should add Synchro to the Olympics instead and they'd have their Team Event there.

    If a Team Event is to be added, then skaters should be skating different programs than they do in their respective disciplines for it to make sense.

    I mean what is the point of repeating the same programs again? You might as well use the scores which are already there.

    And I am sure all skaters and coaches would be thrilled at the idea of having to practice another program for the Olympics.

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