Should team competitions be the Olympic sport?

[gkelly]

Each of the qualifying countries then selects a skater or a team from each discipline, plus one skater OR team in reserve.

Those skaters/teams will each have one minute to perform 3 elements, with the highest two elements counting toward the team's score. Singles skaters must have a spin as one of their counting elements. So basically a jump combination and a spin, with an extra jump combination in case something goes wrong with the first one. Oh - and the number of features counting towards a spin's score would not be capped! They'll have to figure out how much extra features are worth.

Yeah, something like that.

I don't know enough about pairs and dance to say what they should do, or how the scoring should be tweaked, but maybe pairs can do a throw and two lifts, and dancers could do two rotational lifts plus a spin or step sequence?

Definitely a step sequence for the dancers (their choice whether in hold or "no touch"?). And a lift, but not necessarily a rotational one.

Of course they're going to use ones elements straight out of their programs so they'll be well trained. But you could also throw in, say, a sequence from a compulsory pattern dance, as long as you let them know in advance what it will be.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I don't think gymnastics/swimming/etc. and skating are really compatible equivalencies, but I see some disagree with me.

Saying, for example, Michelle Kwan, two-time Olympic Champion- Short Program reeks of the time when Sasha Cohen said that she won Nationals...short program before she won Nationals in 2006.

[Visaliakid]

I like many of the ideas expressed by CoCo. However Mr. Rogge has the 2009 World Team Trophy to look at as well as the 2011 version (one week after their meeting - NBD!) and likely will, before deciding.

I hope that all those doing the moaning and groaning will feel better about their opposition after Rogge approves Speedy's and the Olympic Committee's positive recommendation and installs it as a regular part of the Olympic figure skating competition beginning with the Sochi games.

It's gonna happen whether we want it or not. They could care less what us hard-core skating fans think. Fait a' comple (correct spelling or not)!

[julieann]

I don't think gymnastics/swimming/etc. and skating are really compatible equivalencies, but I see some disagree with me.

Saying, for example, Michelle Kwan, two-time Olympic Champion- Short Program reeks of the time when Sasha Cohen said that she won Nationals...short program before she won Nationals in 2006.

So if they only win one medal why not just let them skate one program? Or they should get a medal for the two different programs that they do skate. Obviously the ISU thinks so or they wouldn't issue medals for the two programs separately.

[pennskater]

They keep saying it would be too expensive to add synchro to the olympics, yet a lot of posters are recommending adding totally new groups of skaters for the team event. Wouldnt synchro be easier to add and more exciting?
They could limit it to 12 on the ice or something, but even with 12, synchro would be better than this!
This sounds like the team compulsory events my daughter did as a child. One girl would do a jump, one a spin, and another spirls or footwork. They got judged as a group. It was dumb, and did not go over well. The only reason kids did it was for the fun of being out there with someone else.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

So if they only win one medal why not just let them skate one program? Or they should get a medal for the two different programs that they do skate. Obviously the ISU thinks so or they wouldn't issue medals for the two programs separately.

But they're not real medals. Those are miniature medals meant as a nice thing to give skaters during the post-Worlds reception. It's not as if we have a World Champion-Short Program and a World Champion-Long Program, do we?

As for why don't they just skate one program? Short Programs do not only carry over scores to the Long Program but also act as qualifier to the Long (granted they don't eliminate of that many entrants). Gymnastics (which is a popular comparison for the pro-team event people) has a qualifying round for both individuals and teams to qualified for Team finals, All-Around finals, and Event Finals so it's not as if they win a medal for qualifying then for those finals either. In the past, before they changed the rules, gymnastics used to carry over scores from their Preliminaries (which used to be compulsories) to the Team Final, but that changed after they got rid of compulsories then changed the number of scores counting from preliminaries to team finals for the 2004 Olympics.

[julieann]

It's not as if we have a World Champion-Short Program and a World Champion-Long Program, do we?

Maybe we should.

I'm not sure why some people are so against change in this sport...for old birds like me...I was pretty upset when they got rid of compulsory figures but the sport must move on and evolve as they see fit.

I think for them they want more viewers, it's as simple as that.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

The problem is your logic is that you assume that more medals mean more viewers. I don't see the purpose of having more medals other than some people hoping that their favorite skaters (who might not do well enough to win a whole competition outright) might be able to have a title of medalist or champion anyway.

[julieann]

The problem is your logic is that you assume that more medals mean more viewers.

It's their logic not mine, that's why they want to add more competitions. figure skating is the most watched sport in the Winter Olympics so it only stands to reasons if you add more chances for medal winning you will add more viewers. It's not my logic, it's a fact.

[icenut84]

figure skating is the most watched sport in the Winter Olympics so it only stands to reasons if you add more chances for medal winning you will add more viewers. It's not my logic, it's a fact.

I don't think that would happen though. It's all well and good for the die-hard fans to say more skating/more medals/more events is fantastic, or for their favourites to have 25 chances to be Olympic champion instead of just one, but consider the fact that the majority of viewers of the Olympics are probably only once-every-four-years viewers. (Otherwise, the Worlds would be a ratings winner and there wouldn't be any issues with the ISU needing to cut costs by reducing the number of skaters in the LPs, etc.)

People who only tune in for the Olympics don't want to see the exact same routines twice in quick succession. Skating is *not the same* as gymnastics - the routine, the music, the costume, the choreography etc are so much more recognisable than the routines are in gymnastics. If you made the top ice dance teams perform their free dances in some team event, and then a few days later they performed them again in the dance event - why would casual fans watch the actual dance event? They'd probably assume the TV station was showing some kind of repeat! Either that or they'd get bored, think "I've already seen this" and watch something else. (I use dance as an example because it's most likely to have clean performances, so casual fans wouldn't see much difference.)

I watched the Olympics with someone who isn't a fan and was only mildly interested because I was. He'd seen a little of Europeans with me too, and even he recognised some of the routines and was pretty perplexed as to why skaters keep doing the same ones. And that was a completely different event with several weeks in between! A casual fan who watches one event at the Olympics, tunes in again a few days later and sees the exact same performance being skated - you really think that's a ratings winner?

[aliceanne]

Something has to change skating is losing fans and participants at a tremendous rate. What worked 100 years ago isn't working now.

I don't see why new events such as synchro and compulsories couldn't be added. The skaters could qualify for the events individually and skate as many or as few as they as they qualify for.

[gkelly]

I don't see why new events such as synchro and compulsories couldn't be added. The skaters could qualify for the events individually and skate as many or as few as they as they qualify for.

That idea I like, and I'm pretty sure it would not lose viewers, as having the same skaters repeat the same programs most likely would.

But it would add a lot of athletes to the Olympics. So unfortunately the costs probably outweigh the benefits.

[barbk]

I have unfortunate visions of someone like Marta Karoly being given full authority to decide who makes the team, and it is not a good feeling.

[aliceanne]

I have unfortunate visions of someone like Marta Karoly being given full authority to decide who makes the team, and it is not a good feeling.

Didn't Tara call up Bela Karoyli for a pep talk during the '98 Olympics? I believe he also judged a made for tv competition and placed Oksana ahead of Nancy which pissed Nancy off. The Karolys already have their foot in the door

How do people qualify for track and field events? Would a system like that work for compulsory skating events? My thoughts are along the lines of involving more skaters not having the same skaters do more events.

I also wish there was a way to bring back show skating as a separate discipline, but I don't think that would fit as an Olympic event.

[gkelly]

Would a system like that work for compulsory skating events?

What do you mean by "compulsory skating events"?

My thoughts are along the lines of involving more skaters not having the same skaters do more events.

That would be great, but I'm sure that's not what the IOC has in mind.

I also wish there was a way to bring back show skating as a separate discipline, but I don't think that would fit as an Olympic event.

Well, it never was an Olympic event, or even an ISU event. Unless you count the galas/exhibitions.

The ISU did sponsor some "open" (pro-am) interpretive events in the 1990s, but they were more about cashing in on public interest in professional-style skating than about serious sport.

The IOC has been happy to have skating exhibitions to sell tickets to at the end of the Olympics, but given their periodic threats to get rid of ice dance because of the overly subjective judging, I can't imagine they'd be interested in adding a competitive discipline that's more about entertainment than technique.

Maybe the ISU could try to develop a format for consistently judged, technique-based artistic skating and eventually hold championships in that discipline, with hopes of eventually being added to the Olympics. I think that would likely draw audiences, especially if famous former stars would be interested in participating. But I think it's less likely the IOC would be interested in accepting it as a sport. Or the speedskaters in the ISU, for that matter.

But show skating just as shows rather than competition is not something for the sports governing bodies to promote. That needs an impresario with skating credentials and contacts, an artistic vision, and business vision and contacts to get funding, completely separate from any sports context.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

It's their logic not mine, that's why they want to add more competitions. figure skating is the most watched sport in the Winter Olympics so it only stands to reasons if you add more chances for medal winning you will add more viewers. It's not my logic, it's a fact.

No, that's not a fact. That's supposition based on very little evidence supporting it. If you have something that explicitly shows that adding more medals would automatically mean more viewers (I don't know how skating can have more viewers DURING the Olympics) then I'd love to see it. I mean figure skating is already on throughout the two weeks the Olympics are televised, so I don't see how much more coverage figure skating can get in the Olympics (much to the chagrin of fans of other Winter sports I bet).

Anyway, there's a myriad of problems and reasons why skating has declined in popularity (new scoring system confusion among casual viewers, scandal plaguing the sport's reputation, cable and satellite television taking viewers away, internet, lack of tv coverage/advertisement, etc.) I'm finding that some people who are supporting the team event are trying to desperately make it seem that it's going to some how save Figure Skating and we'll see it regularly on prime time in non-Olympic years. People keep using gymnastics and swimming as examples of sports that have teams and comparing it to figure skating. How are the ratings for those sports for their events outside Olympic years? How often do we see them on American television? Let me tell you, gymnastics coverage is even more dismal than figure skating.

[aliceanne]

[QUOTE=gkelly;2931971]What do you mean by "compulsory skating events"?



Jump, spin, or footwork events. Some people just like jumping - let them show off their quads and quints (maybe) with splits, tucks and delays. Lucinda Ruh made a career out of spinning, there are probably more people like her out there. I've seen roller skaters and break dancers do footwork that would put many elite skaters to shame, however, they aren't interested in traditional figure skating.

The clubs and rinks need something to reverse the decline in interest. My sense is that the general public finds traditional skating events stale. Snow sports have revitalized themselves by adding snowboarding and freestyle skiing.

[pennskater]

Something has to change skating is losing fans and participants at a tremendous rate. What worked 100 years ago isn't working now.

I don't see why new events such as synchro and compulsories couldn't be added. The skaters could qualify for the events individually and skate as many or as few as they as they qualify for.

That was my thoughts earlier in the thread (I would rather see synchro added), but the ISU keeps saying synchro would add too many skaters. Yet, if they use different people for the compulsories, that adds skaters as well (at least 3 people per discipline times 3 disciplines of singles, pairs, dance = 9). So I dont see them allowing different people for the compulsories if they do not allow synchro.

If they would allow teams of 10-12 in synchro, that might be easier to add than the currrent 16 on teams...and would equate to the same total of skaters being added, with the bonus of being much more exciting, plus the fastest growing discipline of skating.

Unfortunately, it seems as though the only thing they are considering is letting the same skaters that are already qualified for singles, pairs, dance to compete in the new 'compulsory' jump event for example. That way it doesnt cost more for housing (the skaters are already there).

But this isn't going to work for most of the competitors. They are already exhausted from doing short and free programs, and really dont have the training time or desire to do extra events. Plus they would have to stay more days to fit in the new events.

The only people interested would be the ones from countries that dont have a chance at medaling, and then they may focus instead on the new event instead of focusing on their original qualifying event. So, I see the current events suffering from people not focusing on them, and the new events being lack luster as well.

So, the only thing that makes sense is a reduced-size synchro team. Heck, even if they had just 8 skaters it would be more exciting than compulsory jump or spin events!

[stjeaskategym]

Skating fans on this forum are barely interested in synchro... Why would the general public be? A team event with the top names is probably more appealing. I just don't understand why it can't be AFTER the individual events so that the main attention and focus is always on the individual skating.

As for programs being repeated... I don't think people would mind seeing some of their favorite programs over again several days later in a team event. But why must the team competition come first in the schedule?

People who only tune in for the Olympics don't want to see the exact same routines twice in quick succession.

That describes compulsory dance even more than a team event. They are replacing compulsory dance with something that they hope will be a little more exciting. I'm not sure how many skating programs the general public would really even remember after several days have passed.

Skating is *not the same* as gymnastics - the routine, the music, the costume, the choreography etc are so much more recognisable than the routines are in gymnastics. If you made the top ice dance teams perform their free dances in some team event, and then a few days later they performed them again in the dance event - why would casual fans watch the actual dance event?...

I agree this seems like a real concern, especially for ice dance. Then again, but the time Event Finals are held in gymnastics, the audience is seeing the same floor routines for the FOURTH time in some cases. Maybe some people were annoyed to see Nastia Liukin doing a routine to "Dark Eyes" four times in a row, but I'm guessing most people didn't remember or didn't care... They just wanted to see if she would hit or mess up.