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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Judging is not just about international events. Most of it is done at the grass roots level.
    Or in the words of Thomas "Tip" O'Neill, former Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives ......

    .............. "All politics is local."

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Nagasu may have been a bit undermarked in Vancouver but she wasnt even close to winning a medal at all, about 3 falls away, so it is hard to see any real case she was robbed of a medal. Rochette has much stronger jumps (the ones she lands cleanly) and there are more points to be won on GOE for jumps than spins and spirals under the new system anyway. And her skating has more maturity and power at this point.
    Well judge judy, lets check the numbers. Rochette 202.64 versus Nagasu at 190.15 appears to not be close. But the topic is PCS, which is often based on reputation, rather than performance in the current event. In the short and long, Rochette placed 3rd, with PCS placement of 3rd. Nagasu placed 6th in the short, largely because of she received a PCS in a tie for 10th. In the long, her executed elements were placed 2nd, but her PCS was placed a lowly 6th.
    If Rochette is so strong technically, lets loook at the executed elements scores, were all elements are judged individually. In the combined short and long, Rochette scored 102.00 in executed elements. Nagasu scored 102.83, beating Rochette overall and both Rochette and Asada in the long. So Rochette's apparently overwhelming 12 point margin over Nagasu is entirely from a reputation based PCS. On executed elements actually scored in Vancouver, Nagasu edged Rochette. Consequently, many believe Nagasu was robbed of a medal.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    Well judge judy, lets check the numbers. Rochette 202.64 versus Nagasu at 190.15 appears to not be close. But the topic is PCS, which is often based on reputation, rather than performance in the current event. In the short and long, Rochette placed 3rd, with PCS placement of 3rd. Nagasu placed 6th in the short, largely because of she received a PCS in a tie for 10th. In the long, her executed elements were placed 2nd, but her PCS was placed a lowly 6th.
    If Rochette is so strong technically, lets loook at the executed elements scores, were all elements are judged individually. In the combined short and long, Rochette scored 102.00 in executed elements. Nagasu scored 102.83, beating Rochette overall and both Rochette and Asada in the long. So Rochette's apparently overwhelming 12 point margin over Nagasu is entirely from a reputation based PCS. On executed elements actually scored in Vancouver, Nagasu edged Rochette. Consequently, many believe Nagasu was robbed of a medal.
    Or maybe Rochette's PCS are just better than Nagasu.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  4. #84

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    O.K. Here is the TES and PCS both in SP and FS since 2006.
    Scores below are averages from GP Series, GPF, World and 2010 OWG.

    [TES]
    Rank Name TES
    1 Yu-Na Kim 50.36
    3 Mao Asada 46.77
    7 Akiko Suzuki 44.44
    9 Rachael Flatt 44.43
    2 Joannie Rochett 43.98
    4 Miki Ando 43.48
    8 Alena Leonova 40.89
    11 Caroline Zhang 40.74
    5 Laura Lepisto 40.37
    15 Mirai Nagasu 39.30
    6 Carolina Kostner 38.90
    13 Cynthia Phaneuf 36.34
    14 Alissa Czisny 36.13
    10 Kiira Korpi 35.97
    12 Elene Gedevanishvil 34.25

    [PCS]
    Rank Name PCS
    1 Yu-Na Kim 45.71
    3 Mao Asada 44.95
    2 Joannie Rochett 42.78
    6 Carolina Kostner 42.53
    4 Miki Ando 42.37
    5 Laura Lepisto 39.94
    9 Rachael Flatt 39.63
    7 Akiko Suzuki 39.52
    15 Mirai Nagasu 39.45
    14 Alissa Czisny 38.37
    8 Alena Leonova 37.54
    10 Kiira Korpi 37.25
    11 Caroline Zhang 36.34
    13 Cynthia Phaneuf 35.79
    12 Elene Gedevanishvil 35.63

    [PCS/TES Ratio]
    Rank.....Name............... ..TES / ..PCS / Ratio(PCS/TES)
    6. Carolina Kostner........ 38.90 / 42.53 / 109.33%
    14. Alissa Czisny............ 36.13 / 38.37 / 106.22%
    12. Elene Gedevanishvili.. 34.25 / 35.63 / 104.03%
    10. Kiira Korpi................ 35.97 / 37.25 / 103.55%
    15. Mirai Nagasu............ 39.30 / 39.45 / 100.37%
    5. Laura Lepisto............ 40.37 / 39.94 / 98.94%
    13. Cynthia Phaneuf....... 36.34 / 35.79 / 98.48%
    4. Miki Ando................. 43.48 / 42.37 / 97.44%
    2. Joannie Rochette....... 43.98 / 42.78 / 97.29%
    3. Mao Asada............... 46.77 / 44.95 / 96.10%
    8. Alena Leonova.......... 40.89 / 37.54 / 91.82%
    1. Yu-Na Kim................ 50.36 / 45.71 / 90.77%
    11. Caroline Zhang......... 40.74 / 36.34 / 89.19%
    9. Rachael Flatt............ 44.43 / 39.63 / 89.20%
    7. Akiko Suzuki............. 44.44 / 39.52 / 88.95%
    ------------------------------------------------
    Average....................... 41.09 / 39.85 / 97.45%

    Actually, numbers above do not prove anything about "Who is w/too high or too low PCS scores". It's just statistics.
    If any mistake, let me know! (Rank means current world standings)
    Last edited by RunnersHigh; 10-16-2010 at 03:23 PM. Reason: Oder by descending
    This too will pass away.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by RunnersHigh View Post
    O.K. Here is the TES and PCS both in SP and FS since 2006.
    Scores below are averages from GP Series, GPF, World and 2010 OWG.

    Rank.....Name............... ..TES / ..PCS / Ratio(PCS/TES)
    1. Yu-Na Kim................ 50.36 / 45.71 / 90.77%
    2. Joannie Rochette....... 43.98 / 42.78 / 97.29%
    3. Mao Asada............... 46.77 / 44.95 / 96.10%
    4. Miki Ando................. 43.48 / 42.37 / 97.44%
    5. Laura Lepisto............ 40.37 / 39.94 / 98.94%
    6. Carolina Kostner........ 38.90 / 42.53 / 109.33%
    7. Akiko Suzuki............. 44.44 / 39.52 / 88.95%
    8. Alena Leonova.......... 40.89 / 37.54 / 91.82%
    9. Rachael Flatt............ 44.43 / 39.63 / 89.20%
    10. Kiira Korpi................ 35.97 / 37.25 / 103.55%
    11. Caroline Zhang......... 40.74 / 36.34 / 89.19%
    12. Elene Gedevanishvili.. 34.25 / 35.63 / 104.03%
    13. Cynthia Phaneuf....... 36.34 / 35.79 / 98.48%
    14. Alissa Czisny............ 36.13 / 38.37 / 106.22%
    15. Mirai Nagasu............ 39.30 / 39.45 / 100.37%
    ------------------------------------------------
    Average....................... 41.09 / 39.85 / 97.45%

    Actually, numbers above do not prove anything about "Who is w/too high or too low PCS scores". It's just statistics.
    If any mistake, let me know!
    Is it possible for you to separate the years out? Like make another chart for just 2009-2010 scores and another one for 2008-2010? I think that'll also make for an interesting comparison becuase in 2006-2007, no one knew who the hell Lepisto was. Same goes for Suzuki, Nagasu, Phaneuf, and Leonova.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Is it possible for you to separate the years out? Like make another chart for just 2009-2010 scores and another one for 2008-2010? I think that'll also make for an interesting comparison becuase in 2006-2007, no one knew who the hell Lepisto was. Same goes for Suzuki, Nagasu, Phaneuf, and Leonova.
    [2009-2010]
    Rank.....Name................ ..TES / ..PCS / ..Ratio
    6. Carolina Kostner........ 35.77 / 43.11 / 120.50%
    2. Joannie Rochette....... 42.13 / 46.05 / 109.28%
    12. Elene Gedevanishvili... 35.07 / 37.45 / 106.78%
    10. Kiira Korpi................. 36.23 / 38.54 / 106.38%
    5. Laura Lepisto............. 41.89 / 42.77 / 102.09%
    3. Mao Asada................ 44.54 / 46.38 / 104.11%
    14. Alissa Czisny............. 39.65 / 40.81 / 102.93%
    4. Miki Ando.................. 44.47 / 44.24 / 99.48%
    13. Cynthia Phaneuf........ 38.47 / 37.34 / 97.06%
    8. Alena Leonova........... 40.87 / 39.41 / 96.44%
    1. Yu-Na Kim................ 51.95 / 48.67 / 93.69%
    11. Caroline Zhang.......... 37.27 / 34.13 / 91.57%
    15. Mirai Nagasu............. 41.46 / 41.29 / 91.29%
    9. Rachael Flatt............. 44.73 / 40.59 / 90.75%
    7. Akiko Suzuki.............. 44.59 / 39.40 / 88.37%

    Average........................ 41.09 / 39.85 / 100.05%
    Last edited by RunnersHigh; 10-16-2010 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Oder by descending
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  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Is it possible for you to separate the years out? Like make another chart for just 2009-2010 scores and another one for 2008-2010? I think that'll also make for an interesting comparison becuase in 2006-2007, no one knew who the hell Lepisto was. Same goes for Suzuki, Nagasu, Phaneuf, and Leonova.
    [2008-2010]
    Rank.....Name.............. ..TES / ..PCS / ..Ratio
    6. Carolina Kostner........ 37.01 / 42.74 / 115.47%
    10. Kiira KORPI............... 36.23 / 38.54 / 106.38%
    12. Elene Gedevanishvili... 35.12 / 36.92 / 105.13%
    2. Joannie Rochette....... 44.29 / 45.25 / 102.16%
    5. Laura Lepisto............ 41.43 / 41.83 / 100.94%
    3. Mao Asada............... 45.86 / 45.85 / 100.67%
    15. Mirai Nagasu............ 39.30 / 39.45 / 100.37%
    14. Alissa Czisny............ 39.70 / 39.46 / 99.41%
    13. Cynthia Phaneuf....... 36.79 / 36.42 / 98.98%
    4. Miki Ando................. 43.98 / 43.52 / 98.95%
    1. Yu-Na Kim................ 51.40 / 47.79 / 92.98%
    8. Alena Leonova.......... 40.89 / 37.54 / 91.82%
    11. Caroline Zhang......... 39.08 / 35.04 / 89.67%
    9. Rachael Flatt............ 44.43 / 39.63 / 89.20%
    7. Akiko Suzuki............. 44.44 / 39.52 / 88.95%

    Average....................... 41.31 / 40.63 / 98.74%
    Last edited by RunnersHigh; 10-16-2010 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Oder by descending
    This too will pass away.

  8. #88

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    Mirai Nagasu's international PCS scores in 2009-10 season:
    Cup of China
    SP (1st): 24.80 6.35 5.80 6.35 6.25 6.25 0.00 #6
    FS (6th): 51.28 6.55 6.25 6.45 6.45 6.35 1.00 #12
    Skate Canada
    SP (3rd): 24.04 6.35 5.50 6.25 6.05 5.90 0.00 #3
    FS (3rd): 48.80 6.75 5.75 6.15 6.35 5.50 0.00 #9
    Olympics
    SP (6th): 26.76 6.85 6.40 6.75 6.70 6.75 0.00 #11
    FS (5th): 60.56 7.75 7.25 7.70 7.55 7.60 0.00 #24
    Worlds
    SP (1st): 30.20 7.60 7.15 7.70 7.70 7.60 0.00 #50
    FS (11th): 57.04 7.40 6.75 7.20 7.25 7.05 1.00 #23

    Rachael Flatt's international PCS scores in 2009-10 season:
    Cup of China
    SP (5th): 25.40 6.50 6.05 6.40 6.40 6.40 0.00 #10
    FS (5th): 50.40 6.35 6.25 6.20 6.40 6.30 0.00 #8
    Skate America
    SP (2nd): 26.40 6.65 6.10 6.75 6.65 6.85 1.00 #11
    FS (1st): 55.76 7.00 6.70 7.15 6.95 7.05 0.00 #11
    Olympics
    SP (5th): 27.84 7.00 6.60 7.05 6.95 7.20 0.00 #28
    FS (8th): 58.48 7.40 6.95 7.45 7.35 7.40 0.00 #19
    Worlds
    SP (6th): 27.08 6.60 6.15 7.25 6.85 7.00 0.00 #53
    FS (9th): 53.36 6.75 6.45 6.75 6.75 6.65 0.00 #21
    Last edited by Sylvia; 10-16-2010 at 04:02 PM.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by RunnersHigh View Post
    [2009-2010]
    Rank.....Name................ ..TES / ..PCS / ..Ratio
    6. Carolina Kostner........ 35.77 / 43.11 / 120.50%
    2. Joannie Rochette....... 42.13 / 46.05 / 109.28%
    12. Elene Gedevanishvili... 35.07 / 37.45 / 106.78%
    10. Kiira Korpi................. 36.23 / 38.54 / 106.38%
    5. Laura Lepisto............. 41.89 / 42.77 / 102.09%
    3. Mao Asada................ 44.54 / 46.38 / 104.11%
    14. Alissa Czisny............. 39.65 / 40.81 / 102.93%
    4. Miki Ando.................. 44.47 / 44.24 / 99.48%
    13. Cynthia Phaneuf........ 38.47 / 37.34 / 97.06%
    8. Alena Leonova........... 40.87 / 39.41 / 96.44%
    1. Yu-Na Kim................ 51.95 / 48.67 / 93.69%
    11. Caroline Zhang.......... 37.27 / 34.13 / 91.57%
    15. Mirai Nagasu............. 41.46 / 41.29 / 91.29%
    9. Rachael Flatt............. 44.73 / 40.59 / 90.75%
    7. Akiko Suzuki.............. 44.59 / 39.40 / 88.37%

    Average........................ 41.09 / 39.85 / 100.05%
    I don't think these are just meaningless statistics. One could interpet this, at least for 2009-2010, that Kostner and possibly Rochette were overscored in PCS, and Suzuki, Flatt, Nagasu and Zhang were underscored.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    I don't think these are just meaningless statistics. One could interpet this, at least for 2009-2010, that Kostner and possibly Rochette were overscored in PCS, and Suzuki, Flatt, Nagasu and Zhang were underscored.
    Or, alternatively, that Suzuki, Flatt, Nagasu, and Zhang were better at getting the difficult elements executed than at basic skating, program construction, and/or overall performance, and vice versa for Kostner and Rochette.

    Or some combination thereof.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    I don't think these are just meaningless statistics. One could interpet this, at least for 2009-2010, that Kostner and possibly Rochette were overscored in PCS, and Suzuki, Flatt, Nagasu and Zhang were underscored.
    There could be some argument in Kostner's case (which have been argued ad infinitum here), but certainly not in Rochette's. She has totally deserved the PCS she has got because she has paid attention to those areas of her programs. She has a refinement, maturity and attention to detail which are way beyond the rest of the ladies competing today.

    The others are not complete skaters yet but they are getting there.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Or, alternatively, that Suzuki, Flatt, Nagasu, and Zhang were better at getting the difficult elements executed than at basic skating, program construction, and/or overall performance, and vice versa for Kostner and Rochette.

    Or some combination thereof.
    I would say that is a real accomplishment to do difficult elements without having basic skating skills, if that is how you would interpet their PCS. I am just not a big fan of the whole PCS system, as it is currently practiced.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    There could be some argument in Kostner's case (which have been argued ad infinitum here), but certainly not in Rochette's. She has totally deserved the PCS she has got because she has paid attention to those areas of her programs. She has a refinement, maturity and attention to detail which are way beyond the rest of the ladies competing today.

    The others are not complete skaters yet but they are getting there.
    Rochette certainly has refinement, maturity, and attention to detail. I wouldn't agree it is way beyond the rest of those competing today. The judges don't rank her PCS first, if you are a believer in the PCS system.

    One of the others who you say is not a complete skater just placed 4th in Vancouver and 7th in Torino after a poor LP. I am sure many "Complete" skaters would love to have those placements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    Well judge judy, lets check the numbers. Rochette 202.64 versus Nagasu at 190.15 appears to not be close. But the topic is PCS, which is often based on reputation, rather than performance in the current event. In the short and long, Rochette placed 3rd, with PCS placement of 3rd. Nagasu placed 6th in the short, largely because of she received a PCS in a tie for 10th. In the long, her executed elements were placed 2nd, but her PCS was placed a lowly 6th.
    If Rochette is so strong technically, lets loook at the executed elements scores, were all elements are judged individually. In the combined short and long, Rochette scored 102.00 in executed elements. Nagasu scored 102.83, beating Rochette overall and both Rochette and Asada in the long. So Rochette's apparently overwhelming 12 point margin over Nagasu is entirely from a reputation based PCS. On executed elements actually scored in Vancouver, Nagasu edged Rochette. Consequently, many believe Nagasu was robbed of a medal.
    So if their technical scores were within a point so for Nagasu to have beaten Rochette she would have had to have had not only closer PCS to Rochette than they were (which I could certainly see an argument for) but the exact same PCS (or higher) which she certainly did not deserve. Consequently Nagasu was clearly not robbed of a medal.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    So if their technical scores were within a point so for Nagasu to have beaten Rochette she would have had to have had not only closer PCS to Rochette than they were (which I could certainly see an argument for) but the exact same PCS (or higher) which she certainly did not deserve.
    What.......?
    I hear outside a million panicking birds, and know even out there comfort is done with; it has shattered even the stars, this creature at last come home to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    Rochette certainly has refinement, maturity, and attention to detail. I wouldn't agree it is way beyond the rest of those competing today. The judges don't rank her PCS first, if you are a believer in the PCS system.

    One of the others who you say is not a complete skater just placed 4th in Vancouver and 7th in Torino after a poor LP. I am sure many "Complete" skaters would love to have those placements.
    Yes after you yourself has said it was on the technical marks that put her there. However you have made comments insinuating the only reason someone like Nagasu was placed below Rochette, and I refer to your quote below:

    So Rochette's apparently overwhelming 12 point margin over Nagasu is entirely from a reputation based PCS.
    Well Rochette does have a reputation for being incredibly competent and understands how to fulfill the PCS criterias that give her the PCS she needs to be placed above Nagasu. But it is not an accident and I definately feel she gets the PCS she deserves. She works bloody hard in that area of her skating.

    However maybe go and volunteer to be a skating judge because we need more people like yourself who have that passion and knowledge.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Too low= Akiko Suzuki. Can't believe she got lower PCS than Korpi at Finlandia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RunnersHigh View Post
    [2009-2010]
    Rank.....Name................ ..TES / ..PCS / ..Ratio
    6. Carolina Kostner........ 35.77 / 43.11 / 120.50%
    2. Joannie Rochette....... 42.13 / 46.05 / 109.28%
    12. Elene Gedevanishvili... 35.07 / 37.45 / 106.78%
    10. Kiira Korpi................. 36.23 / 38.54 / 106.38%
    3. Mao Asada................ 44.54 / 46.38 / 104.11%
    14. Alissa Czisny............. 39.65 / 40.81 / 102.93%
    5. Laura Lepisto............. 41.89 / 42.77 / 102.09%
    4. Miki Ando.................. 44.47 / 44.24 / 99.48%
    13. Cynthia Phaneuf........ 38.47 / 37.34 / 97.06%
    8. Alena Leonova........... 40.87 / 39.41 / 96.44%
    1. Yu-Na Kim................ 51.95 / 48.67 / 93.69%
    11. Caroline Zhang.......... 37.27 / 34.13 / 91.57%
    15. Mirai Nagasu............. 41.46 / 41.29 / 91.29%
    9. Rachael Flatt............. 44.73 / 40.59 / 90.75%
    7. Akiko Suzuki.............. 44.59 / 39.40 / 88.37%

    Average........................ 41.46 / 41.29 / 100.05%
    Oops! I found errors and order!
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    Kiira benefits from the "Pretty PCS" boost.

    She has mastered Tanith's " face."

    I don't think she's as fast or secure in her edging as her countrywoman Laura Lepisto. She also has scary, scary technique on some of her toe jumps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by all_empty View Post
    Kiira benefits from the "Pretty PCS" boost.

    She has mastered Tanith's " face."

    I don't think she's as fast or secure in her edging as her countrywoman Laura Lepisto. She also has scary, scary technique on some of her toe jumps.
    Yes, plus "good taste" bonus, for her choreo, costumes...But who cares, she is beautiful !!!!

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