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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    If the jumps are intended doubles, I don't see why the judges could not score the PCS accordingly. I think they could be held back on skating skills, even though the type of jumps is not intended to be an indicator of that score. I don't know that we see too many senior ladies who are doing that many intentional double jumps, however. The majority seem to have at least one or two triples.
    Skating skills add to the quality of a jump, but there is much more to skating skills than just the entries and exits of jumps. So again you cannot take away from a skater who only does doubles because they may fulfill all the criteria to get a high PCS for skating skills. And the doubles may also be technically perfect. We are so used to seeing triples these days, but you need to look at skaters past who had wonderful skating skills and were only doing doubles.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  2. #62

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    Put it this way. If you had to score Dorothy Hamill's Olympic-winning performance with only doubles against a performance by, say, Surya Bonaly with 7 triples, which one do think should earn higher marks for Skating Skills?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Kevin Reynolds, Samuel Contesti, and Ryan Bradley all come to mind when I think of talented jumpers with poor skating skills, all of them are long legged and don't really get into their knees which lessens the impact of their skating.
    Sorry for being off topic..

    It seems true, when you look at somebody like Chan with lower centre of gravity and gorgeous edges and skating skills. Nonetheless, I hope Kevin Reynolds have a breakthrough season this year and not waste his outstanding quads and combinations.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    You forgot to mention reputation as well. I am still completely about Kostner's ridiculous PCS (upper 6s to mid-7s) for that epic meltdown Free Skate in Vancouver.
    What about her other epic meltdown at Worlds in Los Angeles the year before, where she popped the majority of her jumps? Every one of her PCS scores were in the 7s there, which is ridiculous.

  5. #65
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Put it this way. If you had to score Dorothy Hamill's Olympic-winning performance with only doubles against a performance by, say, Surya Bonaly with 7 triples, which one do think should earn higher marks for Skating Skills?
    Touche.

    Skating Skills are separate and should be judged apart from jumps. A jump is definitely part of the figure skating skill set, but that is not what is meant by "Skating Skills".

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by all_empty View Post
    What about her other epic meltdown at Worlds in Los Angeles the year before, where she popped the majority of her jumps? Every one of her PCS scores were in the 7s there, which is ridiculous.
    Why? Why should popped jumps dictate PCS scores? They are two separate numbers. I fear that the judges think like you when they enter PCS scores. Poor jumping does not always equal poor skating skills.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Why? Why should popped jumps dictate PCS scores? They are two separate numbers. I fear that the judges think like you when they enter PCS scores. Poor jumping does not always equal poor skating skills.
    I think what they're trying to say is that the performance just goes out the door when Carolina starts making mistakes. She just looks like a mess out there when she pops and falls on jumps, and it hurts the choreography as well as the interpretation.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Put it this way. If you had to score Dorothy Hamill's Olympic-winning performance with only doubles against a performance by, say, Surya Bonaly with 7 triples, which one do think should earn higher marks for Skating Skills?
    that's a very effective comparison

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Put it this way. If you had to score Dorothy Hamill's Olympic-winning performance with only doubles against a performance by, say, Surya Bonaly with 7 triples, which one do think should earn higher marks for Skating Skills?
    Yep that is the kind of thing I was referring to and a very good example.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    Sorry for being off topic..

    It seems true, when you look at somebody like Chan with lower centre of gravity and gorgeous edges and skating skills. Nonetheless, I hope Kevin Reynolds have a breakthrough season this year and not waste his outstanding quads and combinations.
    Yeah, and Daisuke. I also think it looks quite scary when the tall/long-legged men jump, because I'm always afraid they will topple over. I think that Evan having such good skating skills despite being so tall and long-limbed makes him that much more impressive.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Why? Why should popped jumps dictate PCS scores? They are two separate numbers. I fear that the judges think like you when they enter PCS scores. Poor jumping does not always equal poor skating skills.
    This leads me to a question I've been thinking about since discussions have raged over Laura Lepisto and Carolina Kostner.

    Does anyone have a theory as to how obviously popped triples into doubles or singles influence judges' PCS scores, if at all? I'm not talking about the rule book. I'm talking about how the judges actually rule on them.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Does anyone have a theory as to how obviously popped triples into doubles or singles influence judges' PCS scores, if at all? I'm not talking about the rule book. I'm talking about how the judges actually rule on them.
    A fall interferes with the choreography. A skater has to get up off the ice, and this takes time from the routine. A step out or hand down is less of an interruption, though still looks bad. A double or single is no interruption, so the choreography can continue as normal like nothing happened.

    So I think a fall hurts PCS the most, step out or hand down somewhat less, and a popped jump very little.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    I think what they're trying to say is that the performance just goes out the door when Carolina starts making mistakes. She just looks like a mess out there when she pops and falls on jumps, and it hurts the choreography as well as the interpretation.
    But the thing is someone like Kostner carries the intent of her program through, even with the mistakes. If she decided to just skate around after a few problems with her shoulders slumped looking totally disinterested, then you would rightly take her PCS down. But she doesn't. She still gets out there and performs the rest of the program, does all the choreography and interprets the music to the music.

    Just because it isn't exciting for the audience because of the jumps, doesn't mean that the judges are not doing their job correctly and giving her appropriate PCS because she does fulfill the criteria for those.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Does anyone have a theory as to how obviously popped triples into doubles or singles influence judges' PCS scores, if at all? I'm not talking about the rule book. I'm talking about how the judges actually rule on them.
    My theory is that different judges take them into account in different ways or not at all, so there wouldn't be one theory that would summarize how "the judges" as a collective actually handle them.

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    My theory is that different judges take them into account in different ways or not at all, so there wouldn't be one theory that would summarize how "the judges" as a collective actually handle them.
    And that is why you have more than one judge. So it isn't just one person's opinion.

    I am much more comfortable being on a larger panel than a smaller one.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    And that is why you have more than one judge. So it isn't just one person's opinion.

    I am much more comfortable being on a larger panel than a smaller one.
    But in fact, there are not much differences between judges into the same panel. We see almost the same marks from every judge.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Why? Why should popped jumps dictate PCS scores? They are two separate numbers. I fear that the judges think like you when they enter PCS scores. Poor jumping does not always equal poor skating skills.
    I never said she had poor skating skills but I was there in L.A. and saw her practices and performances. The entire week she was way off.

    The scores I felt she were overmarked were in performance/execution. The popped jumps did affect this. This was not a skater physically or emotionally involved throughout her performance (a criteria). There was a lot of glib smiles and inconsistent projection (another criteria). From my perspective in the audience, it just wasn't sincere.

    I also find her choreography and transitions to be lacking in parts. I can forgive the long setup for the 3F, but her programs generally seem to be jump, jump, jump. She does have exceptional skating skills and a great final footwork sequence, but the balance of elements can be improved.

    For the record, I would scored her in the 7s for skating skills, high 6s for transitions, choreography/composition, and interpretation, and low 6s for performance/execution.
    Last edited by all_empty; 10-11-2010 at 08:09 PM.

  18. #78
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    I find Kostner to be very jerky, lacks pacing and way too hectic with her arms and body and that affects P/E, CH and IN even when she lands her jumps.

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    I smell an FSU judging game involving Carolina Kostner.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    But in fact, there are not much differences between judges into the same panel. We see almost the same marks from every judge.
    Judging is not just about international events. Most of it is done at the grass roots level.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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