senior ladies w/ too high or too low PCS scores

[takuna]

too high: lepisto, leonova, kostner (when she is not on)
too low: suzuki, elene G. and Cheltzie Lee

[smarts1]

Well, to be fair, Yuna Kim and Miki Ando went 1 and 2 at the GPF and they each only landed 4 triples in the FS, but at least they each did two 3lz in those programs, which can't be said of Lepisto. Alissa Czisny won the US title with 3 triples in the FS, and Sasha Cohen and Mao Asada won Olympic silver with 4 clean triples in the FS.

Alissa winning the title that year was a joke, and everyone knows that. Either way, Sasha landed two triple flips in her FS (which is a jump Laura doesn't have yet) and Mao did two triple axels in hers. I don't really get the comparison beyond the fact that Laura did one less triple than them.

[lowtherlore]

Too low:
Suzuki, Ellen G, Wagner, Phaneuf, Nagasu, Nakano

I notice wide range of opinions on Lepisto, but I don’t have problem with her PCS in Vancouver or 2010 Turin Worlds. IMO about every aspect of her skating is fabulous and if she gets her jumps right, she could be divine.

Too high:
Ando, when she looked like going with her first run-through on her new routine, on many occasions.
Kostner, when she bombed, dazed and confused, a la 2008 Worlds.
Asada, when she stole the second base, clueless in looking for her missing helmet for good 10 seconds, at 2008 Worlds.

[judgejudy27]

Overmarked: Miki Ando, Racheal Flatt

Undermarked: Mirai Nagasu, Cynthia Phaneuf

Cant really think of any other good choices right now.

[RumbleFish]

Akiko Suzuki tend to get undermarked in PCS, but her inability to skate a clean SP does not help her cause. I wonder if she has fixed this problem for the upcoming season.

[isk8junkie]

Just putting this out there.......if you can jump...ie....triple triple combo, 3 lz etc does this automatically give the judges the right to mark up program components???? My reason for asking is to understand as I've seen performances in past seasons from skater who may be able to jump but lack in areas of program components but the marks don't really reflect this.

In the past for example a Carolina Kostner that gets out and singles everything and receive ridiculous program component marks or even say Alissa Czisny on occasions where she isn't on. Not to take away from these skaters as when they're on, they're wonderful to watch.

Just asking.....

[Polymer Bob]

Just putting this out there.......if you can jump...ie....triple triple combo, 3 lz etc does this automatically give the judges the right to mark up program components????

I really believe that well executed jumps have a psychological effect on judges making everything else look prettier. Poor jumps make everything else look uglier. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it is.

[Lookingood]

Agreed!

[Aussie Willy]

But what if they are good looking doubles and intended to be doubles?

[Fallcolor]

But it's not : Skating Skill is about skating technique. And everything is linked : you can't do intricate choreo without good skating skills.

Absolutely agree with this.

With skaters who consistently have excellent technique and showing an amazing level of execution (GOE's), they usually do have good skating skills. Yuna Kim and Virtue/Moir come to mind. In ladies, the ability to do the most demanding tricks while making it look effortless is a sign of good skating skills. And especially in the case of ice dance, if you can't execute your elements at a high level it's a good reflection of your skating skills.

Undermarked- Ashley Wagner. The one category I would give her higher points is on transitions. She has such little time to set up between her jumps/jump sequences in most of her programs, compared to the other americans, she should score higher in this category IMO. Caroline Zhang i thought was overmarked right up until last season. Once she started her GP debut in Paris last season the judges actually marked what they saw.

And while i may not like Lepisto doubling most of her jumping passes, I'm starting to see why she gets the PCS that she does. I just had to throw the old 6.0 system mindset out and adjust my thinking to COP.

[Aussie Willy]

I just had to throw the old 6.0 system mindset out and adjust my thinking to COP.

This is a good point. Most people still look at programs under the old system.

[barbk]

This is a good point. Most people still look at programs under the old system.

The good system under which Lepisto would have never been likely to make it anywhere near a Worlds podium, and where those who did would have been capable of landing all the standard ladies' jumps.

[Ankka]

The good system under which Lepisto would have never been likely to make it anywhere near a Worlds podium, and where those who did would have been capable of landing all the standard ladies' jumps.

Yeah well, she just lacks flip. I may have to disagree with you on this because for me skating is not JUST about jumps. I mean, those are important too but the old system pretty much ignored spins (bad for MANY Swiss skaters ) and steps although they were also required back then. Laura may not have the most consistent jumps on Earth but her edge quality in and out of them is amazing and she can do triple-triples and has improved her lutz a lot. But her other qualities are amazing.

Oh and for me, the most important thing about skating is the actual skating and interpretation, not tricks. But then again I'm a dancer

[Nomad]

The good system under which Lepisto would have never been likely to make it anywhere near a Worlds podium, and where those who did would have been capable of landing all the standard ladies' jumps.

I didn't like 6.0 because it was basically a punitive system. Skaters could only lose points for missed/botched elements; for elements done well they gained nothing.

[tangerine_dream]

I thought Mirai deserved the bronze in Vancouver with scores similar to those of Asada and Rochette. I thought she should have beaten both Asada and Rochette in the FS as she was clean and they both made some sizable errors, and edged out Rochette for the bronze overall where they did land the same jumps in the SP. Mao would have edged out Mirai overall because of the SP but the scores would have been much closer, I know it was a big deal she did 2 3a in her FS but it still doesn't make up for the fact that she only landed 4 clean triples in that FS which was also choreographically empty.

I agree that Nagasu should have won Bronze in Vancouver. At the same time, I'm really glad Joannie won because her story and what she did at the Games is what the Olympics really should be about.

[olympic]

I agree that Nagasu should have won Bronze in Vancouver. At the same time, I'm really glad Joannie won because her story and what she did at the Games is what the Olympics really should be about.

I think Mirai was hindered by her lack of status outside the US, plus skating early in the SP at Vancouver. Her marks were held back somewhat there

[judgejudy27]

Nagasu may have been a bit undermarked in Vancouver but she wasnt even close to winning a medal at all, about 3 falls away, so it is hard to see any real case she was robbed of a medal. Rochette has much stronger jumps (the ones she lands cleanly) and there are more points to be won on GOE for jumps than spins and spirals under the new system anyway. And her skating has more maturity and power at this point.

[olympic]

Nagasu may have been a bit undermarked in Vancouver but she wasnt even close to winning a medal at all, about 3 falls away, so it is hard to see any real case she was robbed of a medal. Rochette has much stronger jumps (the ones she lands cleanly) and there are more points to be won on GOE for jumps than spins and spirals under the new system anyway. And her skating has more maturity and power at this point.

I want to clarify that I never thought Mirai should've medaled in Vancouver, but that certain factors outside of skating may have contributed to her being a little further back - lack of intl. rep, skating early in the SP, etc.

[Polymer Bob]

But what if they are good looking doubles and intended to be doubles?

That's a good point. I think good looking jumps, even doubles, make other non-jump elements look prettier and nicer. The problem is that doing only doubles will lower a skater's TES. Such a skater will probably lose to a skater doing less pretty triples.

[peibeck]

I really believe that well executed jumps have a psychological effect on judges making everything else look prettier. Poor jumps make everything else look uglier. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it is.

You forgot to mention reputation as well. I am still completely about Kostner's ridiculous PCS (upper 6s to mid-7s) for that epic meltdown Free Skate in Vancouver. She had the lowest TES of any skater in the event, three falls, and still managed to beat the majority of the field. The same goes for Joubert in the mens field in PCS. These are skaters capable of those PCS, but when they don't deliver they shouldn't be awarded scores based on "previous merit."

But what if they are good looking doubles and intended to be doubles?

If the jumps are intended doubles, I don't see why the judges could not score the PCS accordingly. I think they could be held back on skating skills, even though the type of jumps is not intended to be an indicator of that score. I don't know that we see too many senior ladies who are doing that many intentional double jumps, however. The majority seem to have at least one or two triples.