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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    So if their technical scores were within a point so for Nagasu to have beaten Rochette she would have had to have had not only closer PCS to Rochette than they were (which I could certainly see an argument for) but the exact same PCS (or higher) which she certainly did not deserve. Consequently Nagasu was clearly not robbed of a medal.
    You understood my poiint very well, and your analysis is correct, assuming Rochette was not overscored in TES. I recall many after Vancouver saying the scores for the three medalists were quite generous.

    You also assume you know what Nagasu's PCS should be, and what it should not be. I tend to like the TES system, as it is an objective measurement and judges have to defend their scores if they stray too far from the norm. The PCS scores are much more subjective.

    Remember, Rochette placed 3rd in PCS in the Olympic SP, while Nagasu was in a tie for 10th in PCS. Yet only a month later in Torino, Nagasu got a placement of 3rd in the PCS in the SP, only 0.08 behind Kim in 2nd. How can you say she doesn't deserve a high PCS when only a month later Nagasu's Placement was the same as Rochette's placement in Vancouver?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Yes after you yourself has said it was on the technical marks that put her there. However you have made comments insinuating the only reason someone like Nagasu was placed below Rochette, and I refer to your quote below:



    Well Rochette does have a reputation for being incredibly competent and understands how to fulfill the PCS criterias that give her the PCS she needs to be placed above Nagasu. But it is not an accident and I definately feel she gets the PCS she deserves. She works bloody hard in that area of her skating.

    However maybe go and volunteer to be a skating judge because we need more people like yourself who have that passion and knowledge.
    I agree that Rochette certainly deserves high PCS, I just thought Nagasu deserved much higher than she received. I think the judges realized that in Torino, where she got a PCS placement of 3rd in the SP. It was a little late though. Being a judge would be interesting, but I am a little old for that and, never having been a skater, there is a lot I don't know.

  3. #103
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    Besides 2 Junior Worlds medal from 2 seasons ago, Nagasu had not achieved much in 2009 and 2010 internationally. She deservedly skated early in the short program at the Olympics and unfortunately the judges lowballed her on PCS. To have her behind Flatt and Ando on either TES and PCS was ridiculous enough.

    In the free I would have both Nagasu and Lepisto beat Rochette, but Rochette had such a deservedly huge lead over the two of them after the short (I would have Rochette second after the short) that I would have been OK with either Nagasu or Rochette having the bronze. Rochette was the better skater but Nagasu for me had the better competitive performances.

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Rochette was the better skater but Nagasu for me had the better competitive performances.
    Which could and should affect the Performance/Execution component. But how about the construction of the program, in time and space and relation to the music? I think Rochette had an advantage there, which affects Transitions and Choreography and Interpretation.

    Although much of the Interpretation score depends on how the skater happens to express the music that day, which can vary. And Nagasu's IN score at the Olympics was certainly higher than it was at Skate Canada.

    And Interpretation can probably be the most subjective component. Which means that just because you disagree with someone about a skater's interpretation doesn't necessarily mean that one of you is wrong.
    Last edited by gkelly; 10-21-2010 at 04:28 AM.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    Remember, Rochette placed 3rd in PCS in the Olympic SP, while Nagasu was in a tie for 10th in PCS. Yet only a month later in Torino, Nagasu got a placement of 3rd in the PCS in the SP, only 0.08 behind Kim in 2nd. How can you say she doesn't deserve a high PCS when only a month later Nagasu's Placement was the same as Rochette's placement in Vancouver?
    Rochette wasnt even at Worlds and the caliber of skating at Worlds was about 40% of the Olympics. No offense but your comparision is a bit surreal. Only 0.08 behind Kim on PCS, yeah with Kim skating the worst short or long program performance of her entire life probably. Nagasu was making her big international event debut at the Olympics, wasnt considered a contender, and drew early in the SP. Obviously unless she did something remarkable (which she didnt in the short in Vancouver, it was just good) she isnt going to get PCS up with the established leaders. And her short program in Vancouver definitely wasnt as strong as Rochette's, and Rochette was the reigning World silver medalist skating on home ice to boot (if you expect the judges to not think of such things then you should create some robots to judge as that is the only way that will happen). Of course her PCS in the SP especialy are going to be much higher, and it would be foolish to have expected otherwise. I could see arguing Nagasu possibly beating Rochette in the LP in Vancouver, and their PCS in the LP even being close, but beating her overall, no way.

    By Worlds though Nagasu had rightfully earned some respect with her strong Olympics performances, especialy her outstanding long program, and by delivering another excellent performance in the Worlds short program. Her Worlds short program by the way was much superior to her Olympics short program. Combine that with the much much worse level of skating at Worlds, and that she had over a series of performances made a name for herself and earned increasing respect (and had a better skate draw) and her increase of PCS in the World short program is only natural. Your comparision is highly flawed.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Your comparision is highly flawed.
    I think the point is the judging systems and judges are highly flawed. Everything should be judged based off what is put out there on the ice. PCS is not judged like that, it is more of an overall opinion of the skater (their history,medals, country) and not the performance itself. I wish they would invent some robot judges but even then they would be programed by people. The only semi-reliable portion is TES. The only time I have seen a skater jump into a major senior competition and be marked relatively fair was Sasha Cohen at the 02 Olympics and she was skating at home.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett View Post
    I think the point is the judging systems and judges are highly flawed.
    In the sense that judges are human beings and judging systems are human constructs, of course that's inevitable and applies to all judging systems, all judges, and all outside observers who propose to judge the judging.

    The only time I have seen a skater jump into a major senior competition and be marked relatively fair was Sasha Cohen at the 02 Olympics and she was skating at home.
    By "relatively fair" do you mean high? Because there have been other occasions when newcomers were marked quite high on their debuts in "major senior competition" (with or without reputation from junior or minor senior events), but of course you personally may not have seen those occasions. Or you may believe they were overmarked if you like Cohen's skating better than, say, Harding's or Kerrigan's or Baiul's or Plushenko's.

    And of course all of those examples are under 6.0 judging.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett View Post
    I think the point is the judging systems and judges are highly flawed.
    I am not sure what people expect though. Unfortunately skating judging is highly intellectually and emotionally intensive. It is only flawed when people don't like the results and you are going a certain percentage who agree and certain percentage who disagree. Usually it is the ones who disagree who are the more vocal and shout the loudest about how flawed the system is.

    It is also a volunteer run sport. Even our top judges do not get paid for what they do. Problem also is skaters spend a hell of a lot of money on their sport to partake in it, and then there a few skaters who actually make an income from it.

    So we have people who don't get paid judging people who pay out a lot of money to be involved. Not exactly balanced is it.

    If you were to actually do an organisational analysis of the problems, the volunteer workforce would probably be at the top of the list.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    In the sense that judges are human beings and judging systems are human constructs, of course that's inevitable and applies to all judging systems, all judges, and all outside observers who propose to judge the judging.

    By "relatively fair" do you mean high? Because there have been other occasions when newcomers were marked quite high on their debuts in "major senior competition" (with or without reputation from junior or minor senior events), but of course you personally may not have seen those occasions. Or you may believe they were overmarked if you like Cohen's skating better than, say, Harding's or Kerrigan's or Baiul's or Plushenko's.

    And of course all of those examples are under 6.0 judging.
    Well yea in a ideal situation everyone would agree on the judging but that is never going to happen but that isn't going to stop people from calling attention to it.

    Oh I wasn't even thinking that far back but you are correct those 4 were marked very highly on the big stage right off the bat. I was just saying she delivered the goods and got the marks.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    I am not sure what people expect though. Unfortunately skating judging is highly intellectually and emotionally intensive. It is only flawed when people don't like the results and you are going a certain percentage who agree and certain percentage who disagree. Usually it is the ones who disagree who are the more vocal and shout the loudest about how flawed the system is.

    It is also a volunteer run sport. Even our top judges do not get paid for what they do. Problem also is skaters spend a hell of a lot of money on their sport to partake in it, and then there a few skaters who actually make an income from it.

    So we have people who don't get paid judging people who pay out a lot of money to be involved. Not exactly balanced is it.

    If you were to actually do an organisational analysis of the problems, the volunteer workforce would probably be at the top of the list.
    I just hope to agree with the block most of the time and usually I do. Regarding the Olympics, would I have liked to see Mirai with higher second marks in the short program? Yes. Do I think Laura should have been ahead of Mirai in the long prorgam? No. Did Joannie deserve her medal? Heck ya. In the end it was all fine in my book.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Rochette wasnt even at Worlds and the caliber of skating at Worlds was about 40% of the Olympics. No offense but your comparision is a bit surreal. Only 0.08 behind Kim on PCS, yeah with Kim skating the worst short or long program performance of her entire life probably. Nagasu was making her big international event debut at the Olympics, wasnt considered a contender, and drew early in the SP. Obviously unless she did something remarkable (which she didnt in the short in Vancouver, it was just good) she isnt going to get PCS up with the established leaders. And her short program in Vancouver definitely wasnt as strong as Rochette's, and Rochette was the reigning World silver medalist skating on home ice to boot (if you expect the judges to not think of such things then you should create some robots to judge as that is the only way that will happen). Of course her PCS in the SP especialy are going to be much higher, and it would be foolish to have expected otherwise. I could see arguing Nagasu possibly beating Rochette in the LP in Vancouver, and their PCS in the LP even being close, but beating her overall, no way.

    By Worlds though Nagasu had rightfully earned some respect with her strong Olympics performances, especialy her outstanding long program, and by delivering another excellent performance in the Worlds short program. Her Worlds short program by the way was much superior to her Olympics short program. Combine that with the much much worse level of skating at Worlds, and that she had over a series of performances made a name for herself and earned increasing respect (and had a better skate draw) and her increase of PCS in the World short program is only natural. Your comparision is highly flawed.
    So the quality at world's was down. Everyone was on an equal footing. You seemed perfectly happy with Nagasu's rediculously low PCS at Olympics. But then act like her increased PCS at world's was not earned because the quality of the competition was down. The problem is if her PCS went up at world's because of what she did in Vancouver, then the judges should increase the PCS when it happens. What good does it do a skater to be rewarded at a future competition for what the skater did today, expecially at the Olympics. As far as Nagasu's Olympic SP, it was ranked 4th in TES, ahead of other "contenders" such as Ando, Flatt, Kostner, Lepisto, etc. I thought it was as strong as Rochette's SP. Both skated clean, with strong jumps in superb programs. If the judges did not take Nagasu seriously because of her starting position, that is the judges fault.

  12. #112
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    Joannie's sp was the performance of the whole Olympics competition for me. Nagasu's was a rendition of a cheesy, albeit entertaining movie. Sorry, they're in different stratospheres as far as interpretation level for me. then again, Joannie is a woman and Nagasu is a very talented 16 year old

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    Joannie's sp was the performance of the whole Olympics competition for me. Nagasu's was a rendition of a cheesy, albeit entertaining movie. Sorry, they're in different stratospheres as far as interpretation level for me. then again, Joannie is a woman and Nagasu is a very talented 16 year old
    I completely agree with what you said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    Joannie's sp was the performance of the whole Olympics competition for me. Nagasu's was a rendition of a cheesy, albeit entertaining movie. Sorry, they're in different stratospheres as far as interpretation level for me. then again, Joannie is a woman and Nagasu is a very talented 16 year old
    Very nicely worded. ITA.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  15. #115
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    Another big ditto from me. I would have had Joannie's SP in first even, if not for Yu Na's 3/3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett View Post
    Well yea in a ideal situation everyone would agree on the judging but that is never going to happen but that isn't going to stop people from calling attention to it.
    But there are different ways to call attention to areas where you disagree with the panel.

    On the one hand, you can say "If I had been marking Skater Q I would have placed her higher/given her higher scores for xxxxxx because..." and then give good reasons why you would have marked her higher. Or lower, as the case may be. If you have good reasons, everybody, even maybe the judges on the panel if they happen to read your posts, can learn from the discussion and everyone is respected.

    On the other hand, if the discussion is all about how the skater was overmarked or undermarked (as this thread asks for) or marked fairly according to your expectations, implying or stating outright that the judges got it wrong when the only criterion for determining what is "right" or "fair" is the poster's opinion of how s/he would have judged that performance.

    Suggestions that decisions that disagree with the poster's own assessment are wrong disrespects those judges who may have just as good reasons for their decisions as the did, but who came to different conclusions. It disrespects other fans who may have different opinions for equally good reasons. And if the posts focus on the "the judges" as a monolithic group represented by the final average scores, it disrespects the honest differences of opinion between those judges (which, of course, would be much easier to track if the scores from each judge weren't scrambled the way they are now for senior internationals).

    I don't really like a thread that asks for examples of skaters who were marked wrongly (over or under). I'd much rather have an open discussion about how we each think certain skaters should be marked and why. That way we can all learn from differing opinions instead of marking off territory as right vs. wrong, fair vs. unfair.

    We've had some of each in this thread. I just wish the thread title had been phrased in such a way to favor the latter approach.

  17. #117

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    I also think a lot of the complaints about judging come from people expecting perfection with a system that depends a lot on subjectivity and interpretation. You can never have perfection with a system like that.

    But then it is a sport that leaves itself open to that kind of analysis.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    Joannie's sp was the performance of the whole Olympics competition for me. Nagasu's was a rendition of a cheesy, albeit entertaining movie. Sorry, they're in different stratospheres as far as interpretation level for me. then again, Joannie is a woman and Nagasu is a very talented 16 year old
    This! Her's is the performance that stays in my mind from the entire Vancouver Olympic figure skating competition in all disciplines. She totally deserved the silver medal!

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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    I thought it was as strong as Rochette's SP.
    Then sadly you are out of touch with reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Her's is the performance that stays in my mind from the entire Vancouver Olympic figure skating competition in all disciplines. She totally deserved the silver medal!
    The fact she delivered two emotional performances doesn't mean she deserved a medal. Mirai was emotional, too, just the other way. And Mao had three 3A and emotions. So, Joannie was not the only skater who combined emotions with landing jumps.

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