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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Maybe now that downgrades aren't quite so harsh more ladies will attempt the harder 3-3s. For most of the past quad the penalties for URs have been ridiculous.
    I agree. The only way we are going to see more consistent 3-3s is for people to regularly throw them in competition. Why do that if you think you might under rotate and get a huge drop in your start value? Considering that we've seen a lot of blah programs lately, I at least want to see a 3-3 in there to give me something to get excited about.
    Logic is in the eye of the logician --Gloria Steinem

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    Thank you for the info-crapova sisters is self explanatory but what made Sokolova "cupcake"?
    Dick Button meant that Elena Sokolova was cute as a cupcake. It's an affectionate phrase in North America for someone who is seen as adorable. Sokolova is known for her big, sweet smile and I recall when I first saw her broadcast in America as just a very young girl, I thought she shared a resemblance to the Rainbow Brite cartoon character. She's so cute and sweet looking. Interestingly enough, I also thought Irina Slutskaya shared a resemblance to the Strawberry Shortcake cartoon character as a little girl with those rosy cheeks and charming smile of her's.

    Four years ago, I predicted Lysacek, Oda, and Takahashi would be on the next Olympic podium. I got 2 out of 3 right. I never would have thought/dreamed that the mens' event would have been as lackluster in Vancouver as it was though given the depth of the talent pool. (le sigh)
    Last edited by museksk8r; 08-30-2010 at 03:45 PM.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    There was a thread about it here, I am too lazy to find it, but I am pretty certain that more than 5 europeans ladies had 3-3 combo recognised last season.
    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=72315

    That's what I posted on 5, March but moved into Archive...

    For your convenience. (I added 2010 World Championship)

    Statistics on the 2nd triple 09/10 season.


    I just studied on the 2nd triple for fun and got these result.
    The results are all based on ISU hosting intn'l events(GP Series and Final, Euro and 4C) plus Olympics and World.

    > There had been 4 kinds of 2nd triples : 3Lz+3T, 3F+3T, 3T+3T, 2A+3T.
    > Just 10 skaters were ratified for their 2nd triples.
    > 3 skaters (Miki, Akiko and Caroline) tried but never ratified.
    > European skaters are really good at 3T-3T.
    > No Japanese skaters had been ratified.
    > 2nd triples
    .... 3Lz+3T : Yu-Na Kim, Mirai Nagasu.
    .... 3F+3T : Rachael Flatt, Carolina Kostner
    .... 2A+3T : Yu-Na Kim, Mirai Nagasu
    .... 3T+3T : other 6 skaters
    > Ratified/tried 2nd Triples in each event.
    .... <GP Series and Final> TEB: 4/4, RC: 0/2, CoC: 0/1, NHK: 1/1, SA: 7/8, SC: 2/4, GPF: 0/2
    .... <Euro> 8/12
    .... <4C> 0/0
    .... <OLY> 14/17
    .... <World> 13/15

    --------------------------------
    Skaters ratified one more time..
    --------------------------------
    Yu-Na KIM had been ratified 11 times out of 14.
    -. TEB-SP... 3Lz+3T and FS.. 3Lz+3T, 2A+3T
    -. SA-SP.... 3Lz+3T and FS.. 3Lz+3T<, 2A+3T
    -. GPF-SP... 3Lz+3T< and FS.. 2A+3T<
    -. OLY-SP... 3Lz+3T and FS.. 3Lz+3T, 2A+3T
    -. World-SP..3Lz+3T and FS.. 3Lz+3T, 2A+3T
    Sarah HECKEN had been fully ratified for 8.
    -. SA-FS.... 3T+3T
    -. SC-SP.... 3T+3T
    -. Euro-SP.. 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. OLY-SP... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. World-SP..3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    Elena GLEBOVA had been ratified 5 times out of 7.
    -. SA-SP.... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. Euro-SP.. 3T+3T< and FS.. 3T+3T<
    -. OLY-SP... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. World-SP..3T+3T
    Laura LEPISTO had been fully ratified for 6.
    -. SC-SP.... 2T+3T
    -. Euro-SP.. 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. OLY-FS... 3T+3T
    -. World-SP... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    Elene GEDEVANISHVILI had been ratified 3 times out of 5.
    -. TEB-FS... 3T+3T
    -. Euro-FS.. 3T+3T+2T
    -. OLY-SP... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T<+2T
    -. World-SP..3T+3T<
    Alena LEONOVA had been ratified 4 times out of 5.
    -. NHK-FS... 3T+3T
    -. Euro-SP.. 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T<
    -. OLY-SP... 3T+3T
    -. World-FS.. 3T+3T
    Ksenia MAKAROVA had been ratified 5 times out of 6
    -. Euro-SP.. 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T<
    -. OLY-SP... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. World-SP..3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    Rachael FLATT had been ratified 3 times out of 4.
    -. SA-SP.... 3F+3T and FS..3F+3T
    -. OLY-SP... 3F+3T and FS..3F<+3T
    Mirai NAGASU had been ratified twice out of 4.
    -. CoC-FS... 2A+3T<
    -. OLY-FS... 2A+3T
    -. World-SP..3Lz+3T< and FS.. 2A+3T
    Carolina KOSTNER tried twice and ratified.
    -. Euro-FS.. 3F!+3T (corrected from SP to FS: briancoogaert)
    -. World-FS..3F+3T
    --------------------------------
    Skaters never ratified..
    --------------------------------
    Miki ANDO had never ratified for her 2nd triples this season yet.
    -. RC-SP.... 3Lz+3Lo< and FS..2A+3T<
    -. OLY-SP... 3Lz+3Lo<
    Caroline ZHANG tried once and downgraded.
    -. SC-SP.... 3F+3T<
    Akiko SUZUKI also
    -. SC-FS.... 1A+3T<

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    We were already making predictions for 2010! I remember the following:
    Ladies: Kimmie Meissner had just won Worlds, and she was being hyped as the new great American hope. People were thinking Kwan would surely come back for for her 10th National Title and possibly one more shot at Olympic gold. Asada and Kim were thought to be real challengers. Miki Ando had been written off by just about everyone, only to get her act together and win 2007 Worlds. Kostner was still very much in the picture as a possible 2010 gold medalist.
    I for one never believed Kwan was ever coming back and I dont think most believed she was after her withdrawal from the 2006 Olympics either. I did think Kimmie would be a bigger force than she has been over the last 4 years, but I never thought she would hold off Asada or Kim on a regular basis. I expected Kim and Asada to dominate the next quad, challenged possibly by Cohen if she stayed in, possibly some by Meissner, and possibly some by Kostner or Ando if they got their acts together. I saw Nakano a possible medal contender too but never believed she would win Worlds with her jump technique. I expected Suguri to bow out gracefully after the 2007 season (which I predicted even after her silver at the 06 Worlds she would miss the team for). I knew we had probably seen the last of Kwan, Arakawa, or Slutskaya, and I didnt expect any of those to be real factors even if they continued at that point other than possibly Shizuka.


    Men: The Weir-Lysacek rivalry was at its height in the USA. Jeremy who? Brian Joubert seemed to be unstoppable. Lambiel was hot and cold. Buttle was still in the picture, but Patrick Chan was the new big Canadian star. Oda and Takahashi were the ones that could step up and do some real damage to the others.
    Pretty much but I never expected Joubert to continue to dominate. Even when he won his World title he was only 3rd in the long program behind Lambiel who had 3 big mistakes. I thought the mens was wide open at that point. I wasnt sold on Chan as a major contender though until atleast fall of 2008 (and after Buttle had retired), I was never completely sold on Oda (with good reason it turns out), and I felt even then that Weir would not be a big factor by 2010 as he was already seemingly not one anymore by 2007. I thought Joubert, Lambiel, Takahashi, Buttle, and maybe Lysacek would share the pie.


    Pairs: Shen and Zhao were back to win Worlds, but then retired (no one was really sure if they'd come back). The Germans took over as the new OGMs to be... Zhangs seemed to be real OGM threats as well.
    Yeah pretty much. I saw the Germans and Zhangs as the dominant 2 teams heading to 2010 at that point, with Pang & Tong just behind them, and several other teams just behind them hoping to eke onto the podium.


    Dance: Belbin/Agosto, as the reigning Olympic Silver Medalists, seemed to be the ones to beat in 2010. DelSchoes were big as well. DomShabs were still a bit in the background. V/M and D/W were the new upstarts.
    I started to get an eery feeling after the 2007 Worlds that Belbin & Agosto would never make it to the top step of a major podium. Domnina & Shabalin looked like a huge threat for 2010 to me even as early as 2006. Delobel & Schoenfelder I did not even expect to continue until 2010 back in 2006 and 2007, and only started seeing them as big threats for 2010 in 2008 (both end of 07-08 season and start of 08-09) before the injuries and pregnancy. I considered Denkova & Stayviski as major threats if they continued, which of course they ultimately did not. I knew Virtue & Moir were contenders for 2010 as early as 2006, but was not all convinced on Davis & White were real factors for 2010 at that point.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    Fumie was still a legit world contender, and there were not hordes of people saying she should retire as there are now.
    I never expected her to remain a contender though. She was already 25 in 2006 so it was clear she was going to be too old, and much too old by 2010, and her skating as an amateur had maxed out. She tried her best but narrowly missed an Olympic medal and World title that season, but still posted her career high points with a 4th at the Olympics and 2nd at Worlds. I knew then it was time for her to move on to grow her skating as a professional and reap the rewards of a fine amateur career in which she had maxed out her potential, and things would go downhill if she did otherwise.

    Even after Skate Canada in 2006 where she barely beat a multi fall Kim in one of her senior debut events it was evident she wouldnt be much of a factor again. Her scoring potential by then was limited, and Rochette with a major error in both programs still easily beat a clean Fumie.

  6. #86

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    Thank you, Runnershigh for such a thorough overview. I knew I read it somewhere. So we have 7 ladies with 3-3 in Europe. Not bad at all.

    Sarah HECKEN
    Elena GLEBOVA
    Laura LEPISTO
    Elene GEDEVANISHVILI
    Alena LEONOVA
    Ksenia MAKAROVA
    Carolina KOSTNER



    Ok, I admit that european ladies have mostly (appart of Kostner) the easiest 3T-3T, but I don't think that European ladies are that far behind North American ladies.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I don't think that European ladies are that far behind North American ladies.
    I don't either. As a whole, I prefer watching more of the Euro ladies than the North American ladies. The only NA ladies I really enjoy are Rochette, Wagner, Nagasu, and Phaneuf. With Euro ladies, on the other hand, I enjoy Kostner, Makarova, Meier, Leonova, Lepisto, and Gedevanishvili. As a whole, the Euro ladies to me seem more mature and womanly and have better skating skills and ice command than the majority of the North American ladies who are younger and more immature and who skate slower and lack command of the ice. JMO.

  8. #88
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    Yeah, but North America at least has a few skaters actually capable of taking the fight against the Asian girls, which Europe doesn't for now (unless Kostner is at her best). I mean, even if it's just two or three of them for now, it's still better than none.

    I'd agree that European girls have more personality, though. Much of the American ladies are quite styleless and pretty much copies of each other (though I think it changes as well).

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    Yeah, but North America at least has a few skaters actually capable of taking the fight against the Asian girls, which Europe doesn't for now (unless Kostner is at her best). I mean, even if it's just two or three of them for now, it's still better than none.

    I'd agree that European girls have more personality, though. Much of the American ladies are quite styleless and pretty much copies of each other (though I think it changes as well).
    Lepisto at her best can fight the Asian girls, judging from her FS score at the Olympics and bronze medal at Worlds even with mistakes. Ksenia isn't there yet but should be in a couple years. Plus the Russian wonderbabies are coming, I just watched videos of Polina Shelepen from Courcheval, she has grown up a lot and still is landing all the difficult jumps. Roza Sheveleva was also quite impressive.

  10. #90
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    Lepisto has been riddiculously overmarked lately, she won her worlds' bronze with a free skate full of double jumps

    about the Russian new generation - that's exactly what I've been talking about on and on. I know they're coming and probably will be in the lead in a couple of years. But for now I'm talking about those girls who are currently in the lead in Europe.

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    Mia joy, it seems that you are putting too much emphasis on 3-3 and if possible, not the 'easier' 3T-3T. Have you noticed that actually you don't need to have triple triple to medal at the top levels? Joannie doesn't have 3-3, and Mao was not doing it this year either, as far as I know. So actually, you can win silver and bronze at Worlds and Olympics without having even the easiest of 3-3.

    I assume, if you land everything and have high levels in all other elements, you may be able to win gold at Europeans and 4 continents without having 3-3. Don't get me wrong, I do like to see nice 3-3 combos, but I don't think it is everything and I wouldn't judge quality of skating based on only whether a skater has 3-3.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Mia joy, it seems that you are putting too much emphasis on 3-3 and if possible, not the 'easier' 3T-3T. Have you noticed that actually you don't need to have triple triple to medal at the top levels? Joannie doesn't have 3-3, and Mao was not doing it this year either, as far as I know. So actually, you can win silver and bronze at Worlds and Olympics without having even the easiest of 3-3.

    I assume, if you land everything and have high levels in all other elements, you may be able to win gold at Europeans and 4 continents without having 3-3. Don't get me wrong, I do like to see nice 3-3 combos, but I don't think it is everything and I wouldn't judge quality of skating based on only whether a skater has 3-3.
    By the same token, you can win Olympics and World gold even without a 3+3 if you are viewed by the judges as being at the top of your game, as Yu-Na Kim was the past couple of seasons. Her victories at Worlds and Olympics were by overwhelming point margins that left all her competitors in the dust. She still would have won her 2009 World title and 2010 Olympic title without the 3Lutz+3toe or the 3flip+3toe provided she still skated well overall and the others also skated at the same level they did.

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    delete
    Last edited by miki88; 08-31-2010 at 01:58 AM.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    By the same token, you can win Olympics and World gold even without a 3+3 if you are viewed by the judges as being at the top of your game, as Yu-Na Kim was the past couple of seasons. Her victories at Worlds and Olympics were by overwhelming point margins that left all her competitors in the dust. She still would have won her 2009 World title and 2010 Olympic title without the 3Lutz+3toe or the 3flip+3toe provided she still skated well overall and the others also skated at the same level they did.
    Even more telling is that Yuna usually won all the events by a landslide with 5 triple LPs. At the Olympics she was totally clean, but at Worlds in 09 she doubled and stepped out sal, and therefore only completed 5 clean triples in her LP, and still won by a huge margin. Yuna won the GPF this year with 4 ratified triples and broke a world record at 09 TEB despite leaving an entire jump (3f) out of her program.

    3-3s are mostly useful to skaters who have weaknesses in other areas such as PCS, flexibility, spins, speed, etc as the extra points gained by having a 3-3 will help compensate for the weaker areas. Rachael Flatt is an example of this, she is able to compete with the top ladies internationally even though her PCS and spins/flexibility aren't top notch because her TES due to her 3-3 and consistency is reliably high to make up for it. We saw the same thing last year on the JGP, Shelepen beat Murakami in the SP at the JGPF because her 3lz-3t gave her high enough TES to compensate for having lower PCS than Murakami and win by a slight margin.

    In other words, if a skater excels in all areas, then 3-3 probably isn't necessary to be on top. One other thing the 3-3 does do though is give a skater a cushion should she make a mistake on another jumping pass or two, if she has 7 triples planned in the program, then having a glitch on 1 or 2 isn't a huge deal.

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