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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    But she's Queen Yuna! I get that Michelle had a long career and is very decorated, but honestly, the standards have changed a lot since her day, she never could jump like Yuna can!
    Michelle is still the skating idol/heroine for a lot of skaters (including Yu-Na), even though she has largely left the skating world (she hasn't competed in five years, and, has done minimal show work). Whether Yu-Na will be serving as an inspiration long after she leaves skating is yet to be determined.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    2. Michelle Kwan- Also to some degree lack of great success vs her main rivals, she did lose the majority of big events she faced off against Tara in 97-98, and lost the majority of overall meetings and many of the big event meetings to Irina in Irina's prime from 2000-2005.
    Michelle's lifetime record against her main rivals in ISU events and Nationals:

    MK vs. Lipinski
    5-4

    MK vs. Slutskaya
    15-10

    MK vs. Butyrskaya
    16-2

    MK vs. Cohen
    10-2

    MK vs. Hughes
    13-2

    The 98 Olympics defines the rivalry Michelle had with Tara Lipinski. On a rare Olympic Ladies FS night when both skated clean, Lipinski edged Kwan. Both skaters won National and World titles over one another. It was very close and unfortunately didn't last much longer.

    Slutskaya was Michelle's main rival during her career. Irina's didn't start consistently beating Michelle until the late 90s and it wasn't until 2002 that she was able to do it in big events like Worlds and the Olympics. After that point, it was very rare for Michelle and Irina to meet due to injuries. Among the many stats, the record at the biggest competitions were World titles Michelle 4 to Irina 2 when in competition. The two Olympics they competed against each other, they both collected silvers. Irina had more success in the grand prix events outside of the majors. That was the case especially outside their head-2-head meetings and towards the end of Irina's career.

    The other records are pretty clear.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    Michelle's lifetime record against her main rivals in ISU events:

    MK vs. Lipinski
    5-4

    MK vs. Slutskaya
    15-10

    MK vs. Butyrskaya
    16-2

    MK vs. Cohen
    10-2

    MK vs. Hughes
    13-2

    The 98 Olympics defines the rivalry Michelle had with Tara Lipinski. On a rare Olympic Ladies FS night when both skated clean, Lipinski edged Kwan. Both skaters won National and World titles over one another. It was very close and unfortunately didn't last much longer.

    Slutskaya was Michelle's main rival during her career. Irina's didn't start consistently beating Michelle until the late 90s and it wasn't until 2002 that she was able to do it in big events like Worlds and the Olympics. After that point, it was very rare for Michelle and Irina to meet due to injuries. Among the many stats, the record at the biggest competitions were World titles Michelle 4 to Irina 2 when in competition. The two Olympics they competed against each other, they both collected silvers. Irina had more success in the grand prix events outside of the majors. That was the case especially outside their head-2-head meetings and towards the end of Irina's career.

    The other records are pretty clear.
    Butyrskaya, Hughes, and the overhyped Cohen were never really Kwan rivals though. Hughes was consistent but just wasnt good enough, Cohen wasnt consistent enough, and Maria wasnt either good or consistent enough. Tara and Irina were her only real rivals.

    You are right on the overall head to heads but Tara was a 13 year old senior nobody at the time of her first 2 losses to Kwan. So in Tara's 2 big seasons it is 4-3 Tara but with Tara a dominant 4-1 edge in big events. I definitely say Tara had the edge in her rivalry with Kwan even though I dont care for her skating much.

    As for Irina I see your point more, but in Irina's prime from 2000 onwards she still won most of her meetings with Michelle including in major events, which is how she overcame an early huge deficit to make it fairly close by the end. Before 2000 Irina wasnt a top level skater who was contending for gold in any major events so of course Kwan won virtually all the early meetings which is how she still leads the career head to head. And in 2000-2002 when both were near their best it was 2-2 in World and Olympic competition with Irina well ahead overall, and Michelle never easily beat Irina but Irina on multiple occasions easily beat Michelle.

    I am not saying Irina or Tara are better than Michelle of course but she had alot more trouble beating them then Witt, Yamaguchi, and Yu Na Kim today have beating their main rivals. When I talk about her record vs her main rivals I mean relative to other dominant skaters in history vs theirs.

  4. #24
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    For me the only problem I have with "Wait until their rivals mature for the head-2-heads to count" logic is that it discounts many quality wins like in the case of Kwan vs. Slutskaya. Also, I think it diminishes the significance of competitive records for skaters that didn't have lengthy eligble careers like Kristi.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    But she's Queen Yuna! I get that Michelle had a long career and is very decorated, but honestly, the standards have changed a lot since her day, she never could jump like Yuna can!
    Michelle was far more artistic than Yu-Na, IMO. Some of Yu-Na's.. well, most.. of her performances are technically perfect but leave me cold. Also, wasn't Michelle doing 3-3s sometimes around '98? (I could be wrong about thsi).

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    Michelle was far more artistic than Yu-Na, IMO. Some of Yu-Na's.. well, most.. of her performances are technically perfect but leave me cold. Also, wasn't Michelle doing 3-3s sometimes around '98? (I could be wrong about thsi).
    Only 3t-3t, she did it 7 times in her career I believe? Yuna's done 3 different types of 3-3s (3lz-3t, 3f-3t, 3t-3t) in her career and has successfully landed those combinations far more than 7 times.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    . . . I have with "Wait until their rivals mature for the head-2-heads to count" logic is that it discounts many quality wins.
    GOOD POINT. Who ever says Maribel Vinson Owens wins over Suzanne Davis did not count because Suzanne had not matured yet. That's silly.

    She beat the best in that year, in that competition.

  8. #28

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    Deleted!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    But she's Queen Yuna! I get that Michelle had a long career and is very decorated, but honestly, the standards have changed a lot since her day, she never could jump like Yuna can!
    there are things michelle can do better than yu-na as well..

    yu-na's not even the best jumper in history..the queen title is nothing but hype

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Only 3t-3t, she did it 7 times in her career I believe? Yuna's done 3 different types of 3-3s (3lz-3t, 3f-3t, 3t-3t) in her career and has successfully landed those combinations far more than 7 times.
    Ahem.... As one of Yu-Na fans, your approach is bitter as gall to me. Do not disgrace Yu-Na and her icon both.

    Back on topic. For me who started to enjoy this sport at 2006.

    -. Yu-Na Kim. Michelle Kwan. Kristi Yamaguchi.
    -. Shizuka Arakawa. Sasha Cohen.
    -. Midori Ito. Mao Asada. Surya Bonaly.
    -. Mirai Nagasu. Laura Lepistö.

  11. #31

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    BACK TO ORIGINAL TOPIC and not a discussion about Kween Kwan...

    TOP 5
    1. Yu Na Kim
    2. Mao Asada
    3. Michelle Kwan
    4. Irina Slutskaya
    5. Maria Butryskaya

    6. Oksana Baiul
    7. Kristi Yamaguchi
    8. Sasha Cohen
    9. Shizuka Arakawa
    10 Joannie Rochette (just cuz!)
    ~I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.~ (Charles R. Swindoll)

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight1 View Post
    BACK TO ORIGINAL TOPIC and not a discussion about Kween Kwan...

    TOP 5
    1. Yu Na Kim
    2. Mao Asada
    3. Michelle Kwan
    4. Irina Slutskaya
    5. Maria Butryskaya

    6. Oksana Baiul
    7. Kristi Yamaguchi
    8. Sasha Cohen
    9. Shizuka Arakawa
    10 Joannie Rochette (just cuz!)
    pfft. anyone with eyes could see it was a yu-na fan who came in contesting people's opinions on who they personally think is best. it's to be expected, it is a discussion forum after all but acting as if it's some misguided "discussion on kween kwan " by her stans would be a misnomer

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist
    Tonya was kicked out of the ISU after abetting a horrible offense against another skater. I don't think she deserves to be on list of top 10 ladies skaters, no matter what her results were.
    It all depends on what the criteria for ranking are. Besides, that incident happened at the very end of Tonya's career and shouldn't negate what came before it. Furthermore, although most people think Tonya was guilty of abetting, that still has never been proved.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27
    Well her results dont really merit it either. The only thing that does is her sheer talent level and peak level of skating ability when she was "on".
    Well, she was the first U.S. woman to land the triple axel, and that's pretty big. But using 1990 as starting point essentially cuts Tonya's career in half, and does even graver injustice to Midori's career. You really can't get an accurate asseessment of either woman's career that way. It would be kind of like assessing Michelle Kwan's career from 2003 onward.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I don't think that the Kween would want that considering that she had the 3Lp while Yuna does not. Yuna made it acceptable to not have a fully set of triples, which is quite the standard change.
    It was Yu-na and Mao who did this (both) but to be quite frank, Michelle didn't have to compete under the same circumstances that both Kim and Asada competed against. She didn't have to worry about harsh callers, she didn't have to worry about difficult spins, footwork which take energy. And I personally think Kim's really difficult combinations and Mao's difficult combinations and triple axels more than make up for not having all 5 triples.

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    I personally think Kim's really difficult combinations and Mao's difficult combinations and triple axels more than make up for not having all 5 triples.
    I don't.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by iarispiralllyof View Post
    pfft. anyone with eyes could see it was a yu-na fan who came in contesting people's opinions on who they personally think is best. it's to be expected, it is a discussion forum after all but acting as if it's some misguided "discussion on kween kwan " by her stans would be a misnomer
    In general I don't give a crap about ladies skating actually. It is rather zzzzzz in my eyes and has been for awhile. I only care about ice dance to be frank. I saw post #22 and as most topics with mention of Kwan...I just had to overlook the perceptions on Kween Kwan. I rarely go into ladies discussions because I like who I like and am bored of all the repeat posts over the years. It is what it is and I won't apologize for stating what I have seen for the last 10 yrs on the message boards. Ironically, I am no big Yu Na fan either...she just happened to be written in slot #1 when I picked my top 5.

    If you must know Oksana Baiul is my all time favourite ever female figure skater
    ~I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.~ (Charles R. Swindoll)

  17. #37
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    I feel like a skater needs to aptly demonstrate the ability to do all the triples consistently in order to be called a "good/great jumper", IMO.

    There are so many great ladies skaters that came out of the past two decades, and in no particular order:

    Chen Lu, Surya Bonaly, Michelle Kwan, Kristi Yamaguchi, Nancy Kerrigan, Tara Lipinski, Oksana Baiul, Sarah Hughes, Kim Yu-Na, Irina Slutskaya, Mao Asada, Maria Butyrskaya, Sasha Cohen, Tonya Harding, etc.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by iarispiralllyof View Post
    pfft. anyone with eyes could see it was a yu-na fan who came in contesting people's opinions on who they personally think is best. it's to be expected, it is a discussion forum after all but acting as if it's some misguided "discussion on kween kwan " by her stans would be a misnomer
    But I want you not to declare her as a Yu-Na fan because it's really hard to separate her fan and a pretender.

    If she knows really well about Yu-Na and what "Kwan the Kween" means to Yu-Na, she would not say like that.

    Yeah, of course.. it's JUST my opinion. Believe it or not..

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sydneyphoenix View Post
    I actually did a similar list a while ago on my own (assigning various points for each achievements), and here's what I've got out of the formula. The era covered is only from 1996 onwards, since the introduction of the Grand Prix Series that gave more opportunities to participate than in prior eras. The algorithm itself is somewhat complicated and subjective (some will disagree with weight I placed on certain competitions). Only skaters that have become an Olympic Champion, a World Champion or a Grand Prix Final Champion are included.

    1. Irina Slutskaya
    2. Michelle Kwan
    3. Yu-Na Kim
    4. Mao Asada
    5. Maria Butyrskaya
    6. Shizuka Arakawa
    7. Tara Lipinski
    8. Lu Chen
    9. Sasha Cohen
    10. Miki Ando

    If you extend the timeframe to post-1988, Kristi Yamaguchi (behind Butyrskaya or behind Arakawa depending on whether you include her Pairs career) and Midori Ito (behind Chen) also have enough points to make it into Top 10 despite their lack of opportunities to participate in Grand Prix Series.

    Note that this is simply a list drawn up from the data on competitive records, not necessarily reflecting who had the greatest artistry or technique on a given era.
    I agree with RunnersHigh that making negative comments about Kwan to uphold Kim (or vice versa) is not helpful, partly because of the relationship they have (quite like a mentor-protégé one to an extent) and partly as they are from different era of technical demand and judging system.

    The inherent flaw (or some will call "joy"?) of such discussion is that it is as subjective as you please and there can never be consensus between fans of different skaters. Ways of viewing artistic is subjective, and Point-of-view about the importance or significance of each technique is also subjective. I have my own favourites (in regards to athletes, artistic style and techniques), but I don't expect others to necessarily agree with me. That's why I simply keep a tab on competitive achievements and leave the rest of the comparison to the judgement of history, present and future-so keep up the good work, guys!!. I'm not saying that I'm completely happy with judgements and results of every competitions-far from it!!-but competitive data is the only relatively objective data I have to derive my conclusion about the level of each athlete.

    Now I have to quantify the worth of each achievement, and I'm afraid there's no way one can avoid subjectivity in such quantification. The principle I used in assigning points for each competitive achievement was how much mark a certain achievements will have within the career of an athlete and in the sports as a whole. Or put another way, I tried to work out to the best of my ability how many of x-title/medal would a reasonable athlete be prepared to swap for how many of y-title/medal. The end-result was something of a pecking order

    Olympics>>Worlds>GPF>Euros/4CC>>GP Event>=Junior Worlds>Junior GPF=Senior B>Junior GP Events.

    I tried to take into consideration the historical significance and prestige of each competition. The point given for winning Olympic is 100 while Junior GP event was given weighting of 4. The ratio of Gold:Silver:Bronze for each competition was set at 5:2:1.5. I wondered whether to assign smaller points for other parts of top 10, but couldn't find enough points to accommodate that in smaller competitions so dropped the idea-and non-medallists don't exactly get into the front-pages of the history books in most cases. I decided not to give extra points for dominance of a performance in a competition or technically ground-breaking performance, because it’s impossible to objectively decide where to draw the line.

    So that's the system I thought of, and I did analysis of every Olympic, World and GPF Champions for Men's and Ladies' disciplines, part of which I presented above. The drawback of the system is that it can't be easily used for athletes that were active many decades ago, due to fewer available competitions, which tends to under-represent their achievements. One can adjust for it, but that turned up some strange results when I did it. Another option is to set up multiple criteria that represent competitive excellence (e.g. medal haul, dominance over a substantial period, consistency at the top throughout the career), but moving goal post (i.e. using different threshold for each criteria) can turn up quite interesting results. Also it makes comparison of athletes and careers boring-no one wants to quibble over weight of competitions and medals rather than unquantifiable object called artistry. This is just something for data and statistics nerds.

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    1.) Yu Na Kim
    2.) Irina Slutskaya
    3.) Michelle Kwan
    4.) Kristi Yamaguchi
    5.) Mao Asada
    6.) Shizuka Arakawa
    7.) Maria Butryskaya
    8.) Mirai Nagasu
    9.) Miki Ando
    10.) Sasha Cohen (even though I'm not a fan, she was the one who started the gumby spirals and spin positions)

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