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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    ... Do you know anything about the 6.0 judging system??? You don't deduct anything because you think a spin has an ugly position (like what you mentioned with the layback)... At this point in time, you also don't deduct anything for a spiral that was only held for 1 second . . .
    I know plenty as did the judges, but it was not as if they followed what they knew either

    I was just giving fair marks given the nature of the competition

    . . . and, yes, 80% of what I said was perfectly justifiable, hence, the marks that stuck ranged from 5.1-5.4

    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    But either way, I would definitely say that she didn't get the marks that she deserved (like the 4.9) because she had fallen out of the judges' favor by that point in time. She hadn't skated cleanly that whole season and was out with injury in 96. And then, she bombed 96 Worlds...
    OMFG, you are going to complain about my judging of what happened on the ice, then talk about this politikal gossipy BS. That's pretty stupid.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 08-10-2010 at 04:44 PM.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    As for everyone saying that she underrotated the lutz, I doubt any majority of the judges even recognized it. At this point in time, there was no such thing as slow motion replay, and no one really cared about underrotation until later.
    Judges cared. Some more than others. But in general, they cared a lot more than commentators or fans.

    Skaters who could land cleanly rotated jumps often cared because they didn't like to see competitors get rewarded for "cheating" the landings.

    http://ww2.isu.org/news/980.html

    There was a specified deduction for "Rotation not complete."

    There was not a specified deduction for traveling in a spin. Which isn't to say judges might not have taken one if the traveling was significant enough. After all, Communication 980 just says that these are examples of deductions, not that it's an exhaustive list.

  3. #23
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    1998 Winter Olympics Ladies' Short Program Scores by Judge

    In the larger scheme of things, it didn't really matter that Judge #4, for example, gave Chen a 5.2 instead of a 5.5 or even a 5.6.

    As we all know, what really mattered under 6.0 was placement, not scores. Most of the judges ranked Chen fourth in the SP. Most of them also ranked Butyrskaya higher on Presentation as well as Required Elements. Therefore, in order for the technical marks to have enabled Chen to finish higher than Butyrskaya in the Short Program, the judges would have had to given her technical marks at least equal to Kwan and/or Lipiniski.
    Last edited by Squibble; 08-10-2010 at 06:04 PM.

  4. #24
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    I want a FSU COP Judging Game for this competition, now!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    - 3Lz in combination was underrotated.
    - 3T had a long break between the jump and preceding steps
    - Only one spiral position was held for longer than 1 second connected by 2 footed skating
    - Layback spin leg position could be better.
    - Combination spin could be better.

    I would have gaven her a 5.9 start value, and given her 5.2 for technical merit, -.2 for each jump element, and -.1 for each non-jump element for a total of -.7 in deductions.

    I am willing to bet that the judge that chose 4.9 gave -.2 as the deduction for each element beginning from a 5.9 start value. The most generous judge was from the USA, and probably ignored the combination spin problems and gave -.1 for all other deductions starting from a 6.0 start value.

    --------------------

    ETA: WOW. Even I, as a Maria fan, am a little suprised a how well she skated.
    While I agree with most of what you said I think there is no way Chen of 1998 was starting with a 5.9 start value. If even Kwan wasnt starting from a 5.9 start value technical mark in either program, there is no way Chen at that point in time was.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    At this point in time, there was no such thing as slow motion replay, and no one really cared about underrotation until later.
    I thought there was. didn't it play a role in scrutinizing quad landings during the 90's. I think I remember michael weiss being credited for landing a clean quad at some nationals and then having it taken back because it turned out he two footed it

    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    And then, she bombed 96 Worlds...
    u mean 97
    Last edited by iarispiralllyof; 08-10-2010 at 11:09 PM.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    While I agree with most of what you said I think there is no way Chen of 1998 was starting with a 5.9 start value. If even Kwan wasnt starting from a 5.9 start value technical mark in either program, there is no way Chen at that point in time was.
    Chen had the planned content for 5.9-6.0 SV, but everybody knew the execution was not going to happen.

  8. #28

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    I'm fascinated by how judges would come up with SV under 6.0. I don't recall commentators ever explaining that, just referring to it.

    Would Lipinski, with her 3z-2l and 3flip, have the highest SV? Did spins ever come into the picture?
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  9. #29
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    How did Chen have such a high base value? I don't even think you can really talk about 6.0 in the context of starting or base values in the same sense you can in regards to COP. Even you could a starting 6.0 base value for ladies during 1998 would have had to been a 3+3 of high difficulty(3z+3t) or 3axel+2 for the combo, 3flip and double axel.

    Chen as far as jump content had about the bare minimum to be competitive, her footwork wasn't as difficult as some of the other ladies, and her spins while meeting the requirements of the day did not stand out.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I'm fascinated by how judges would come up with SV under 6.0. I don't recall commentators ever explaining that, just referring to it.

    Would Lipinski, with her 3z-2l and 3flip, have the highest SV? Did spins ever come into the picture?
    Midori received 6.0s for the required element mark at certain points in her career, so she could be used as an example of what one would have to do during the SP to receive a 6.0. Other than Midori, however who else received a 6.0 for required elements during the late eighties to late ninties?

    Perhaps Lipinski did have the highest starting value, but her required elements score was still less than Kwan's. The judges if they deducted for her flutz like they should have may have placed Lipinski at a starting value of 6.0 consider some judges still gave her 5.8s on the first score.
    Last edited by Lainerb; 08-10-2010 at 11:37 PM.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lainerb View Post
    Midori received 6.0s for the required element mark at certain points in her career, so she could be used as an example of what one would have to do during the SP to receive a 6.0. Other than Midori, however who else received a 6.0 for required elements during the late eighties to late ninties?
    For the technical marks, nobody ever.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    For the technical marks, nobody ever.
    Tonya did.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    For the technical marks, nobody ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    Tonya did.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3P7wxwMMUU


  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I'm fascinated by how judges would come up with SV under 6.0. I don't recall commentators ever explaining that, just referring to it.

    *snip*

    Did spins ever come into the picture?
    Barely.

    Lucinda Ruh 1999 Worlds SP

    Detailed classification

    I think Ruh's jumps were 3T-2T, 3L (ur), 2A, and her spins were .

    Her technical marks were 4.9 4.6 4.7 4.8 5.0 4.7 5.1 4.6 4.8, which doesn't really reflect the difficulty of the spins.

    By way of contrast, Diana Poth did 3T-3T, 2A, 3S and had spins that were good but not in a league with Ruh's. Poth received technical marks of 5.6 5.4 5.4 5.3 5.4 5.5 5.5 5.0 4.9, and finished eighth in the SP.

    A triple-triple and a fully rotated triple jump out of steps counted for a lot more than spins that were beyond the technical ability of any other skater in the competition.

    OTOH, if a skater omitted or fell on a required spin, the "starting value" did come into play.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by iarispiralllyof View Post
    I thought there was. didn't it play a role in scrutinizing quad landings during the 90's. I think I remember michael weiss being credited for landing a clean quad at some nationals and then having it taken back because it turned out he two footed it



    u mean 97
    Lol yeah I meant 97..... But anyway I thought there was no slomo used by the judges at the time... I thought only the commentators had slomo... I remember listening to a TV broadcast of the 2002 Olympics and they said that 2002 had been the first time the judges ever got slomo which they said was why the scores were all over the place and why the judges were so nitpicky.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    Tonya did.
    In an SP?

    Which one?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    In an SP?

    Which one?
    Lainerb didn't specify the SP in their post.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    Tonya did.
    She also received a 6.0 here (LP performance though):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buQXBXmjumU

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    Lainerb didn't specify the SP in their post.
    The question I was answering when I said nobody was regarding the SP.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    The question I was answering when I said nobody was regarding the SP.
    If not for the 2a, I'm SURE this would have...Oh well.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVz07QH2USM

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