Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 42
  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Boston
    Age
    29
    Posts
    3,941
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Chen Lu's SP marks in 98 Olympics

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFt3bDPar60

    I don't understand her marks. Can someone help me understand why it seems all the judges took deductions from her first mark. Her technical marks ranged from 4.9-5.6

  2. #2
    Mad for mangelwurzels
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    جوجه تیغی خجالتی می داند زیبایی از گلبرگ
    Posts
    10,593
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    124629
    I love Chen, but I'd guess that judges deducted for a number of reasons: the triple lutz being under-rotated (or very close - probably some judges gave it and others not), substandard spins, spirals not held, triple toe instead of triple flip or loop as the solo jump, and possibly other things that I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on.

    Under 6.0, I don't think there weren't any specific deductions or loss of points for these things, which perhaps explains the wide range of technical marks.
    I hear outside a million panicking birds, and know even out there comfort is done with; it has shattered even the stars, this creature at last come home to me.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,473
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    21476
    The lutz was definitely cheated, by enough that it would get the < call in today's system. See the replay at the end of that youtube clip.

    Other possible small deductions: traveling at the beginning of the flying spin and (more significantly) on the second foot of the combo spin; not quite 8 revolutions in position on the layback spin.

    Some of the low marks may be not so much because of deductions but because that judge's base mark for the program was not very high to begin with, for whatever reason. Remember the scores were placeholders for rankings, and the judges who marked Chen lowest may have wanted to place her behind earlier skater(s) whom they had given marks only slightly higher.

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    2,775
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    4.9 was pretty redonculous in my opinion, but with the cheated lutz and the weak spins, I think most of the other marks were right on.

    Although I usually love her style, I also don't think LuLu really captured the feel of this tango...a little too loose, not enough tension.

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,274
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    5.6 was much too high, probably even more ridiculous than the 4.9. I would have scored her about 5.3 at most for elements probably. Her spins were weak, her double axel was weak, and her jumps were stalked especialy the double axel, plus a triple toe as the solo jump, and even the footwork and spiral sequence were nothing special. I dont see why she would get a big technical mark, she certainly did nothing to earn it other than staying on her feet and skating fairly clean. And presentation 5.6 around maybe. It was an ok program and performance but nothing special. She certainly didnt deserve any higher than 4th in the short program. Michelle, Tara, and Maria were stronger than her on both marks. She was lucky there were so many mistakes or she probably would have been out of the final flight.

    I usually like Chen alot and her comeback was nice to see, but she was technically well past her prime by that point and it is actually quite surprising she managed to medal in Nagano.

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,274
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Some of the low marks may be not so much because of deductions but because that judge's base mark for the program was not very high to begin with, for whatever reason. Remember the scores were placeholders for rankings, and the judges who marked Chen lowest may have wanted to place her behind earlier skater(s) whom they had given marks only slightly higher.
    She was placed 2nd behind Maria at that point, and ahead of Bonaly but there were probably alot of skaters left the judges were planning to place higher. Kwan, Lipinski, Slutskaya, Bobek, Gusmeroli, Hubert perhaps if she skated well, even Sokolova possibly. So that is probably also what they had in mind, they needed to save alot of marks as they were not expecting her to place that highly. As it turned out only Kwan and Lipinski of those I mentione delivered.

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Miami, FL, USA
    Posts
    6,940
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    She was placed 2nd behind Maria at that point, and ahead of Bonaly but there were probably alot of skaters left the judges were planning to place higher. Kwan, Lipinski, Slutskaya, Bobek, Gusmeroli, Hubert perhaps if she skated well, even Sokolova possibly. So that is probably also what they had in mind, they needed to save alot of marks as they were not expecting her to place that highly. As it turned out only Kwan and Lipinski of those I mentione delivered.
    Slutskaya doubled the 3z of her 3z-2t combo, but still had marks ranging from 4.8 - 5.3 for tech with a mandatory deduction. Lulu had 4.9 - 5.6 with no mandatory deduction, and Slute was only 1 place behind. It would've been a lot less of a fairy tale ending for Lulu if so many others had gone clean - Slutskaya, Gusmeroli, Bobek, Szewczenko able to compete, etc.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,473
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    21476
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    She was placed 2nd behind Maria at that point, and ahead of Bonaly but there were probably alot of skaters left the judges were planning to place higher. Kwan, Lipinski, Slutskaya, Bobek, Gusmeroli, Hubert perhaps if she skated well, even Sokolova possibly. So that is probably also what they had in mind, they needed to save alot of marks as they were not expecting her to place that highly. As it turned out only Kwan and Lipinski of those I mentione delivered.
    I'm specifically thinking of the Australian and Hungarian judges, the ones who gave 5.3 for presentation and lower for required elements.
    http://winter-olympic-memories.com/h...igure_w_ex.htm
    I think their marks for Chen, and also for Bonaly in the case of the Australian judge, were low because they wanted to place her behind Elena Liashenko, who had already skated (with triple lutz combination and triple flip but a step out from one of them, IIRC) and whom they'd already both given 5.1/5.4. I could only speculate whether that might be because of was the planned jump content, a belief that cheated landings (Chen's lutz, Bonaly's second triple toe) were a worse error than a step out, the quality of the basic stroking, or some other reason entirely.

    They were in the minority, so that didn't affect the eventual placements of those three skaters, but it did affect the actual scores shown in the K&C (and Chen's 7th-place ordinals for anyone who bothered to check the protocol at the end of the evening).

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Missing Matsutake
    Posts
    2,737
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Cheated lutz was -.1-.3 depending on how extreme, traveling on the combo spin probably was -.1-.2, there were also breaks between the steps and 3toe which probably resulted in -.1 in deductions from some judges. On the extreme end a judge could have deducted -.6 of a point or -.3 of a point if more lenient.

    Considering an absolutely clean program from Chen probably would have had a base mark of just 5.5-5.7 maybe then some of those marks don't seem that far off if all the deductions were taken into account.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,962
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    7850
    I don't think that judges likely deducted very much for the cheating on the lutz -- that didn't become a significant issue until we got nearer COP. Traveling on the combo spin was judged more harshly under 6.0 than it seems to be under COP. I suspect that it was a lot more to do with base mark and her skate order.

    She wasn't jobbed, that's for sure.

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Missing Matsutake
    Posts
    2,737
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Though it is interesting that Chen went from a skater who received 5.7-5.9 on the presentation mark at her peak and then down to 5.3-5.7 in Nagano. Her maturity and grace were only matched by perhaps Kwan, Bobek and Butryskaya, but I suppose she seemed much slower by then when compared to her earlier years. While I understand that these were place holders under 6.0, the AUS and HUN judges gave her the same presentation score as Sokolova.

    Chen's chronic issues with cheated jumps(though the delay was beautiful) may not have as much of an impact on her scores if one takes into account that starting this season even downgraded jumps with get %70 percent credit. I wonder how the 1998 Olympics would have turned out under COP.

    ETA: The CBS broadcast has a close up of her 3z+2t and Scott calls it as a 1/4 under-rotated. I thought 1/4 was the cut-off before it was downgraded or is any jump cheated by 1/4 or more downgraded?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxER4...eature=related
    Last edited by Lainerb; 08-10-2010 at 02:09 AM.

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    601
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Believe me, had she done much better than the 25th (and not qualifying for the free) at worlds the year before, she wouldn't have gotten marks as low as she did. Also, cause of the skate order that others have mentioned, there were still many skaters yet to come and the judges were probably saving marks. At the end of the day, she did finish 4th or 5th (correct me if I'm wrong), and I didn't really see her any higher than that from the view of the judges back then.

    Also agree with, the underrotation on the lutz probably wouldn't have garnered too much attention at that point in time, yes she did the triple toe instead of the flip, but so did michelle kwan (who got mostly 5.7s and 8s with a slight COE on the lutz), so the toe probably didn't have too much to do with it. The only real reason I see for a deduction back in that day would be the travelling in the combo spin. (Let's be honest, footwork and spiral sequences back then with few exceptions are today's prenovice level at best).

    I do say she's lucky that so many others did not skate as well as they could have, or she really could have been buried in the standings after the short, but still ecstatic that she ended up with the bronze as someone mentioned before, it's surprising that she pulled that off as she was past her prime by then (1996 worlds was like the best =D)

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,863
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    40900
    It's funny because the judge that gave her that 4.9 in tech. and thus placed her in 7th in the SP placed her in 3rd in the LP.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  14. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Boston
    Age
    29
    Posts
    3,941
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Chen Lu recieved almost all 5.8s (only one 5.7) for presentation in the FS at those Olympics. Of course she was more emotional and expressive in her FS and marks are based on many factors. It's just odd to see her presentation marks dip so greatly and so inconsistently for the short then rise consistently for the free with similar quality skating.

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    6,299
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I think we did this event for the "FSU judging game" and I gave her something like a 5.1 for tech (Judgejudy covered all the reasons) and had her a few spots lower than she actually placed, so I don't think she was judged harshly.

  16. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,274
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    Chen Lu recieved almost all 5.8s (only one 5.7) for presentation in the FS at those Olympics. Of course she was more emotional and expressive in her FS and marks are based on many factors. It's just odd to see her presentation marks dip so greatly and so inconsistently for the short then rise consistently for the free with similar quality skating.
    I think her long program was much better quality skating than her short overall. And the program certainly had much more impact than her short which was just kind of nice and there.

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    601
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    Chen Lu recieved almost all 5.8s (only one 5.7) for presentation in the FS at those Olympics. Of course she was more emotional and expressive in her FS and marks are based on many factors. It's just odd to see her presentation marks dip so greatly and so inconsistently for the short then rise consistently for the free with similar quality skating.
    I actually think this was the result of her "coming back" in the short, and at least she skated clean, still had the triple lutz and toe, and as no one else other than the 3 ahead of her (contenders anyway) skated well (judges had said bye bye Surya by then ), she was in good enough position for a medal in the long.

    Of course, with her exquisite long program, the judges saw the short as confirmation that she was back as they were unsure of what she could deliver in the short, and then judged her as one of the "contenders" in the long, eventually leading to a bronze medal.

  18. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Miami, FL, USA
    Posts
    6,940
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ltnskater View Post
    I actually think this was the result of her "coming back" in the short, and at least she skated clean, still had the triple lutz and toe, and as no one else other than the 3 ahead of her (contenders anyway) skated well (judges had said bye bye Surya by then ), she was in good enough position for a medal in the long.

    Of course, with her exquisite long program, the judges saw the short as confirmation that she was back as they were unsure of what she could deliver in the short, and then judged her as one of the "contenders" in the long, eventually leading to a bronze medal.
    that is a good analogy....

  19. #19

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Some place competitive and athletic, but ultimately more like an audition than anything else.
    Posts
    7,804
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    20419
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFt3bDPar60

    I don't understand her marks. Can someone help me understand why it seems all the judges took deductions from her first mark. Her technical marks ranged from 4.9-5.6
    - 3Lz in combination was underrotated.
    - 3T had a long break between the jump and preceding steps
    - Only one spiral position was held for longer than 1 second connected by 2 footed skating
    - Layback spin leg position could be better.
    - Combination spin could be better.

    I would have gaven her a 5.9 start value, and given her 5.2 for technical merit, -.2 for each jump element, and -.1 for each non-jump element for a total of -.7 in deductions.

    I am willing to bet that the judge that chose 4.9 gave -.2 as the deduction for each element beginning from a 5.9 start value. The most generous judge was from the USA, and probably ignored the combination spin problems and gave -.1 for all other deductions starting from a 6.0 start value.

    --------------------

    ETA: WOW. Even I, as a Maria fan, am a little suprised a how well she skated.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 08-10-2010 at 04:16 PM.

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,995
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    - 3Lz in combination was underrotated.
    - 3T had a long break between the jump and preceding steps
    - Only one spiral position was held for longer than 1 second
    - Layback spin leg position could be better.
    - Combination spin could be better.

    I would have gaven her a 5.9 start value, and given her 5.2 for technical merit, -.2 for each jump element, and -.1 for each non-jump element for a total of -.7 in deductions.

    I am willing to bet that the judge that chose 4.9 gave -.2 as the deduction for each element beginning from a 5.9 start value. The most generous judge was from the USA, and probably ignored the combination spin problems and gave -.1 for all other deductions starting from a 6.0 start value.
    ... Do you know anything about the 6.0 judging system??? You don't deduct anything because you think a spin has an ugly position (like what you mentioned with the layback)... At this point in time, you also don't deduct anything for a spiral that was only held for 1 second...

    As for everyone saying that she underrotated the lutz, I doubt any majority of the judges even recognized it. At this point in time, there was no such thing as slow motion replay, and no one really cared about underrotation until later.

    The only deduction that I saw was the travel on the combo spin and the break in the steps of the footwork before the toe.

    If you really want to be nitpicky, the straight line step was a little short of complete (since she started a bit late), the cheated lutz, and the spiral sequence was a bit shallow.

    But either way, I would definitely say that she didn't get the marks that she deserved (like the 4.9) because she had fallen out of the judges' favor by that point in time. She hadn't skated cleanly that whole season and was out with injury in 96. And then, she bombed 96 Worlds...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •