Question about vocal music and illegal elements

**Poggi** · 08-08-2010, 06:42 PM

I've been wondering about this for a while, and as it is still off-season, I thought, I might ask.

I know, that vocal music is prohibited in competitive programs, and can be penalized with 1.00 point deduction. I also know there are illegal elements, like back flips and some pairs and dance lifts (and probably there is more.)

Now, one point is just not that much. How come no-one ever risks doing it?

Wouldn't, say, a vocal Queen song or whatever (and not one of those horrible orchestral/instrumental ones) liven the performance so much, that is makes up in PCS for the mandatory deduction?

How cool would be a side by side back flip in the crescendo of a pairs free skate?

There must be some awesome long-long lifts, which according to the rulebook too long?

Of course, I guess there are not many skaters who want to risk their reputation by such a boneheaded daredevil move, but still - these are possibilities.

Couldn't somebody at least try it on their last season, maybe?

What do you think?

**Jenna** · 08-08-2010, 06:56 PM

Quite interesting. You make a good case. 1.00 is not a lot in the grand scheme of things....of course, it does matter when things are close (Johnny and Evan in 2008). Not sure people would want to take that risk.

**Aussie Willy** · 08-09-2010, 03:36 AM

Well the most interesting thing about Bonaly's FS at the 98 Olympics was the backflip. Because the rest of the program was as boring as ****.

I think they banned backflips because they considered they are too dangerous.

However I don't think a skater would want to risk those kinds of deductions. And I personally don't have a problem with them.

**michiruwater** · 08-09-2010, 04:03 AM

1 point has made the difference often enough.

**bardtoob** · 08-09-2010, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by Aussie Willy

I think they banned backflips because they considered they are too dangerous.

They banned backflips because it was an element from a sport other than figure skating, acrobatic gymnastics. There is no defined edge of entry or exit, but, rather, the element can begin and end on a flat with no curve. This is as opposed to jumps, which have entry and exit edges, SHOULD BE entered and exited on a curve, and are supposed to be as if the skater took a long step or hop and reentered the ice on the same curve.

**bardtoob** · 08-09-2010, 04:35 AM

Isn't acting out dying on the ice banned? Something to the effect of throwing oneself on the ice dramatically does not demonstrated greater skating or artistic skills?

**geod2** · 08-09-2010, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by Poggi

I've been wondering about this for a while, and as it is still off-season, I thought, I might ask.

I know, that vocal music is prohibited in competitive programs, and can be penalized with 1.00 point deduction.
Now, one point is just not that much. How come no-one ever risks doing it?
What do you think?

It's a great question. Poggi.
They probably won't, but I hope this rule changes some day.
There is soooo much great music out there with vocals.

Also, why exactly, was the "no vocals" rule enacted???....Maybe I'm clueless, but I just never got the rationale for it.....

**michiruwater** · 08-09-2010, 05:51 AM

I think the idea was that the lyrics in the songs would distract the judges.

**Kwantumleap** · 08-09-2010, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by michiruwater

I think the idea was that the lyrics in the songs would distract the judges.

Why are they allowed in dance then?

**Aussie Willy** · 08-09-2010, 07:57 AM

They brought them in in dance when they had the Rock'n'Roll/Jive OD back in 98 because of the suitability of the music for that theme. And then decided it was such a good idea that they would allow them in the FD after that. It has just sort of stayed.

**shan** · 08-09-2010, 08:11 AM

I'm glad that vocals are allowed in dance. I wonder if vocals were ever be permitted in singles/pairs.

**Poggi** · 08-09-2010, 08:14 AM

I was thinking about it some more

you know maybe it is not for those competitors whoa re in the medal hunt, but if for someone doesn't really matter if they end up at 33 or 35, they could try it just for the heck of it.

Also, if just a few of them risked vocal music, the ISU might get the clue, and allow it finally.

I get the reasoning of distraction of the lyrics too: it happens whenever the lyrics are on a language I understand, and sometimes I am annoyed when it's in an unfamiliar language

But as it also happens in dance, and the judges don't seem that bothered...

Well, it was just a thought

**Tony Wheeler** · 08-09-2010, 05:04 PM

I remember that one of the Federations suggested in the Congress agenda that the deduction for vocal music be removed from the rules, because it's not allowed in the first place.

Remember the controversy over Joubert not receiving deductions all season in 2008 and then suddenly he got one at Worlds for his "All for You" short program? Abzal Rakimgaliev had been using Child in Paradise by Maksim Mrvica for (I believe) three seasons straight as of 2010, and you can clearly hear the voices chanting "Child in paradise" within the music. I wouldn't consider that a voice being used as an instrument, a la Scene d'Amour, etc. If there was a rule that stated something like "In the event that a competitors music is determined to have vocals prior to the start of an event, the music will be deemed illegal to use within the competition and the skater must provide different music to be able to compete", then we wouldn't have such discrepancies, even if they are rare.

**Kwantumleap** · 08-09-2010, 05:15 PM

I think the vocals rule makes little sense and it's such a waste of time to nitpick at who is using vocals in their music and who isn't.

**Jenna** · 08-09-2010, 05:15 PM

The United States just implemented a rule that vocal music IS allowed up to and including the intermediate level. I attend many competitions, and it is rare to hear someone actually use vocal music. However, it does happen once in a blue moon.

**hanca** · 08-09-2010, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Poggi

Wouldn't, say, a vocal Queen song or whatever (and not one of those horrible orchestral/instrumental ones) liven the performance so much, that is makes up in PCS for the mandatory deduction?

I think it is really an interesting idea, but I don't think it would work like that. I think there would be not only the mandatory deduction but it would also be reflected negatively in the PCS, because the judges would see it as the skater purposely ignoring the rules and they may be quite harsh in giving the PCS. If each of them deducts just a little tiny bit on the PCS, the total deduction could get quite huge.

Figure skating is quite a conservative sport and I don't think that any skater would dare to blatantly ignore the rules, unless they plann to finish with that competition, because I do believe that it could have an impact on their future markings.

**mmscfdcsu** · 08-10-2010, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Poggi

Also, if just a few of them risked vocal music, the ISU might get the clue, and allow it finally.
Well, it was just a thought

Nooooooooooooooooooo! No vocals. We get enough really bad music during the exhibitions. Lets leave the vocals there. Skaters have enough trouble picking decent music as it is. The numbers are truly bad when they pick the music because of the message of the words. Then we have to suffer through every 12 year old out there who thinks that "Imagine" is so profound.

That music is boring as crap. Or who could forget the cringeworthy "MY Way" from Johnny? Please, just stick to attempting to interpret the music. Forget the vocals.

**Kwantumleap** · 08-10-2010, 12:31 AM

I've commonly heard that the choreographers are the ones responsible for the music skaters skate to, even if they're only offering ideas. I don't know why it would be any better or worse than dance. If anything, the skaters could use more choices b/c the warhorses that have been beaten over and over again are still tiresome.

**VIETgrlTerifa** · 08-10-2010, 02:09 AM

Every time I hear the argument that singles skaters should be allowed to use vocal music, all I see is a bad montage of horrific exhibition routines and hear Celine Dion, Andrea Boccelli, Il Divo, Top 40 crap, Easy Listening, and Adult Contemporary.

I just go cold thinking about it.

**Quintuple** · 08-10-2010, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by bardtoob

They banned backflips because it was an element from a sport other than figure skating, acrobatic gymnastics. There is no defined edge of entry or exit, but, rather, the element can begin and end on a flat with no curve. This is as opposed to jumps, which have entry and exit edges, SHOULD BE entered and exited on a curve, and are supposed to be as if the skater took a long step or hop and reentered the ice on the same curve.

Ryan Bradley during a US Nationals exhibition did backflips from all sorts of edge entries. He did a flip-flip! Now, combine him with Surya and the one-foot landing -- do we have a valid jump?

OK, well, two flip-flips, a toe-loop with a vertical split, and a toe-loop that was almost an aerial cartwheel!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngAoIw-Je4I

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