Bourne & Kraatz vs Grishuk & Platov vs Krylova & Ovsiannikov. I admit in my naive days I thought B&K should beat K&O but no way in heck should they have ever beat them. (Even 1996 Grand Prix Final in Hamilton where they did win gold over K&O) Canadian Media/ Tracy Wilson really hyped them up to the point that Riverdance was supposed to be seen as better than Carmen and Memorial?? No way...
Stojko- was UNDERMARKED in 1992 Olympics. He should have been higher in his final placement and possibly won bronze in Albertville. Barna (while I did like him very much) should have been 4th. Though I am going by memory more than sitting down and really rewatching their SP's and LP's.
~I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.~ (Charles R. Swindoll)
During their amateur days the two pairs' competitive records are comparable. I don't see how you can use basic skating to argue the existence of rivalries since many very successful skaters aren't the very best in basics, ala Lipinski, Stojko, Goebel. Or even Lysacek, Sarah Hughes, Joubert and 2010 Plushenko (though their basics are good enough to compete at the top, kind of like S/P). Your one criterion would have rewritten skating history in many competitions and this discussion would have to be revamped.
You can use timing to explain the success of all skaters including S/P, Shen/Zhao and T/M (who no longer had to compete against B/S and S/P post-02).And I agree on Elvis's flaws. However I think his timing was perfect and that is why he dominated.
Either way my point is Michelle was clearly a better skater technically, artistically, and in terms of consistency. Irina was a far superior skater technically with much better jumps, spins, footwork, and even better spirals than Maria, and her overall skating had more power and command than Maria. So why would the Russian federation have ever made her their #1 over Irina. Maria clearly wasnt good enough to beat Kwan and like her skating or not Irina was good enough to challenge or beat Kwan.
Maria's strength was her artistry but she never had the artistry of Kwan, Chen, and Cohen because she was too jerky, stiff, and lacking in emotion. And her technical abilities were always inferior to many of the other top women. I would say she did well to win a World title. The amazing thing is she could have won again in 2000 which would have truly made her the biggest overachiever in history had she pulled that off.
sasha might have been higher than michelle at worlds but how can you count it a rivalry if they cheated,
and overlook her (sasha mistakes and was told to look out for michelles')
rivalries aren't what they aren't if they are allowed to cheat, using drugs, special suits,help them monitor their system so they now when their drugs won't show up in drug test)basically track and field, judges overlooking their mistakes and told to look for another skaters mistakes.
look that their sponsors, dow chemical-who nows what kind of chemical/they will give athletes and say they are clean.
sorry i have given up on clean -healthy and fair competition in the olympics, rivalries aren't there when one gets away with mistakes that includes less amount of deduction for one and most amount of deduction for same mistakes.
it is called cheating and lying. sorry-to me that is what this sport is all about
I love this SP. Note the 2A entrance.
1993 EUROPEANS : MARIA BUTYRSKAYA SP
Here is also a smoking LP she used to beat Josee Chouinard and Tonya Harding at Skate Canada 1992.
Maria Butryskaya (RUS) - 1992 Skate Canada International, Ladies' Free Skate
And yes, to most the costumes are weird and music choices are strange to many.
Last edited by bardtoob; 08-07-2010 at 07:27 PM.
Also, I always crack up at this video with Mishin barking orders to Butryskaya from the board midway through the program and I presume ordering her to attempt the 3toe again after doubling it the first time.
I always felt Maria was under marked and low balled by the federation. Especially in 1996 she was more polished than Slutskaya and should have been on the World podium with bronze over Slutskaya who fell and had her typically sloppy presentation.
I agree that Maria deserved the bronze at the 96 Worlds. Irina had been having an excellent season though with better results than Maria so she was viewed as a much stronger contender going into Worlds that year than was Maria.
The Russian federation decided from the moment Slutskaya emerged that she had more talent and potential than Maria, more potential to win major events (which in hindsight is pretty much irrefutable) and thus backed her as their #1 over Maria from that point forward. I am not sure if Maria was ever really the Russian #1, Olga Markova was favored over by the Russian federation in 94 and 95 as well.
The proof is in the pudding though. Irina as Russian #1 won Worlds twice, but was in real contention to win Worlds as many as 4 or 5 times, won atleast silver at Worlds 5 times, won 2 Olympic medals and was in real contention to win both, won 4 Grand Prix finals, won 13 regular grand prix events, won a Goodwill Games title, won a record 7 European titles, and beat Michelle atleast 10 times excluding the silly cheesefests which I dont keep track of (but which would probably add atleast another 3 times). Now would Maria as the Russian federation #1 have attained the same success. Anyone.
Maria as probably the Russian #1 in 1998 and 1999 when Irina was struggling couldnt even beat a past her prime and technically weak Chen for an Olympic medal, and couldnt even beat an overweight and slumping Slutskaya for the World silver and 98. She also couldnt even beat Tatiana Malinina to win the Grand Prix final, Tanya Szewcenko to win NHK, an off form Kwan to win Skate Canada, or Elena Sokolova to win Cup of Russia. Her greatest shining moment was winning Europeans back to back, and a World title where Kwan struggled and no skaters who had or would ever manage more than a bronze medal at Worlds apart from 13 year old Hughes were in the field.
Last edited by judgejudy27; 08-07-2010 at 08:13 PM.
Maria Butryskaya will ALWAYS BE THE FIRST FEMALE RUSSIAN WORLD CHAMPION.
Yes, at 26, iirc. The ultimate late bloomer.
I agree. She may not have dominated any one set of skills, but there were individual elements in which she was better. Aside from that awful layback, her spins were generally strong (one of the best camel spins in the business, and a better sitspin than Irina). She also had a great loop and lutz with a deep outside edge. As far spirals, hers may not have had the speed of Irina's, but they had better extension and no where near the sloppiness.Originally Posted by shady82
I would have been here sooner, but the bus kept stopping for other people to get on it. - Sheldon Cooper, The Big Bang Theory
My opinion on B/S and S/P.
B/S had the better basics, sublime really, and because of this the smaller and greater errors that were always creeping into their programs were more jarring than they might be in lesser pairs' skating. Also, their choreography tended toward gilding the lily, I often remember wishing they'd just tone it down a little and concentrate on skating clean rather than finding a new way to disguise their resting spots (I blame Moskvina for that, she was too enraptured by their potential to ever let them really achieve it).
S/P had somewhat lesser basics (though still very impressive) but concentrated more actually skating programs they could do well and cleanly (why they dumped the B/S-ish Orchid). They came closer to skating to their full potential than B/S did. They also had the elusive X factor of being able to make their programs seem like more than the sum of its parts.
I agree about the B/S vs. S/P opinion. S/P's presentation was endearing, warm, and relatable to the audience, but B/S's artistic skills and program construction were on a higher "plane" of achievement. But the gap between these two teams has been way too exagerrated on this board. An almost-clean B/S and a clean S/P should be comparable - I don't think that B/S are so far ahead that they have that room for error.
And regarding Butyrskaya, I do agree on her stiffness and other negative aspects. I find her artistry to be a bit more contained, but with this subtle inner drama and a grandness that comes with age, which you don't see in the younger or middle-aged skaters. You can see this with "Seventeen Moments of Spring" or "Tale of Travel", even though the latter wasn't that great of a program.
I wouldn't call her a great overachiever for her abilities, though. She actually is a very proficient skater (but not as talented as other top skaters, that's true), and many people who have observed her practice performances do note that they are very, very strong. She gets nervous during competitions, which hinders the smoothness of her skating. She didn't get lucky with her achievements, either, since she was often judged unfairly to begin with. Her SP/FP performances at the 1999 Worlds would have been good enough to win at the 2000 Worlds. It was even enough to win Olympic gold in 2002, since there was no way her SP would rate lower than 4th, and her FP will obviously be ranked 1st. Sarah Hughes, for example, is definitely a larger overachiever than Butyrskaya.
Personally, I thought B&S' Chaplin presented a far more cohesive and trenchant theme than S&P's T&I, but the judges wanted to reward the difficult construction and composition,and thus gave it the nod that year. I have always felt, that when they dumped Orchid to do Love Story, that they really missed the point that the judges were driving home the season and a half leading into SLC. It made perfect sense to me that a clean LS wouldn't win.
I also never really got the whole X factor thing with S&P, they were cute and audience friendly ,but that's about it.
Last edited by escaflowne9282; 08-08-2010 at 07:57 AM.
I agree she could have won other major events with her performances at the 99 Worlds, but here is the thing, that is the only time she skated two back to back programs at that level. Her short program at the 2000 Worlds was even better than 99, but never before or after did she skate 2 programs at that level.I wouldn't call her a great overachiever for her abilities, though. She actually is a very proficient skater (but not as talented as other top skaters, that's true), and many people who have observed her practice performances do note that they are very, very strong. She gets nervous during competitions, which hinders the smoothness of her skating. She didn't get lucky with her achievements, either, since she was often judged unfairly to begin with. Her SP/FP performances at the 1999 Worlds would have been good enough to win at the 2000 Worlds. It was even enough to win Olympic gold in 2002, since there was no way her SP would rate lower than 4th, and her FP will obviously be ranked 1st. Sarah Hughes, for example, is definitely a larger overachiever than Butyrskaya.