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  1. #61

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    Yeah as the 2005 Worlds showed.
    Again, Kwan was clearly in decline by 2005 Worlds, not close to her physical best while Irina skated the most technically demanding skate of her career. Not only that, but didn't the 2006 OGM place 9th in those Worlds? One competition doesn't really prove anything. It's just unfortunate that Kwan never competed COP before or after those Worlds. She still managed to place third in the SP and LP despite having arguably the worst Worlds performance of her career there and level one elements she could have altered with more experience. At least 1997 had a great LP and 1999 had her doing 6 triples in the LP.

    I think the 2008-2010 COP is a lot more friendly to Kwan's style of skating than the 2005-2007 was. That said, I don't think Kwan would've been able to match the GOE from Slute's jumps which I think is where Yu Na gets most of her cushion.
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    I agree with you, but I have never heard anyone suggest until now Kwan would have actually done even "better" under COP and I was responding to someone who said that which I found funny. The most anyone would try to argue until now is maybe she would have done just as well, most who argue in her defense on COP though say not quite as well but still extremely well (winning some major events). There is no way I actually see her doing better under COP than 6.0 though, especialy vs skaters like Slutskaya, Cohen , and Arakawa who are very well suited to COP, that doesnt mean she still wouldnt been able to beat them, but she certainly wouldnt have been even more dominant against them under COP in her prime. She won 5 World titles under the 6.0 system, she would not have improved on that under COP. If anything she would have had more challenges from certain skaters under COP than 6.0. For one thing Irina would have had a lead in points over Kwan after the short program at some events which she didnt get under 6.0 even if she finished ahead in the short.

    And Kwan did have the worst performance of her career at the 2005 Worlds. 1997 Nationals, 2001 Skate Canada, 2002 Masters, and some others were worse. If you want to look at someone who had an awful competition at the 2005 Worlds look at Shizuka. True though that Kwan's long was flawed and a one of her worst actual programs ever (a generic and lacking choreography Bolero which was amazingly choreographed by Dean) and was still 3rd, but her short was clean and quite good and still placed 3rd behind flawed Slutskaya and Cohen. So there are different ways to look at it. Basically her off program she was 3rd but light years behind in points, her very good one she was still 3rd behind off programs of the other two. And who knows how easy the higher level spins would have been for Kwan as far as what future improvements she would have/could have made under COP. She never really liked the bendy spins with lots of changes which are what are required under the rules for the higher levels. That is something we can only speculate on.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 08-06-2010 at 05:15 PM.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I agree with you, but I have never heard anyone suggest until now Kwan would have actually done even "better" under COP and I was responding to someone who said that which I found funny. The most anyone would try to argue until now is maybe she would have done just as well, most who argue in her defense on COP though say not quite as well but still extremely well (winning some major events). There is no way I actually see her doing better under COP than 6.0 though, especialy vs skaters like Slutskaya, Cohen , and Arakawa who are very well suited to COP, that doesnt mean she still wouldnt been able to beat them, but she certainly wouldnt have been even more dominant against them under COP in her prime. She won 5 World titles under the 6.0 system, she would not have improved on that under COP. If anything she would have had more challenges from certain skaters under COP than 6.0. For one thing Irina would have had a lead in points over Kwan after the short program at some events which she didnt get under 6.0 even if she finished ahead in the short.
    I agree with your main points. I don't think Kwan could have done better with COP than she did with 6.0...maybe Nagano being the exception. However, if Nagano was done under the COP then the playing field may have been drastically different by the time Nagano happened.

    And Kwan did have the worst performance of her career at the 2005 Worlds. 1997 Nationals, 2001 Skate Canada, 2002 Masters, and some others were worse. Her long was flawed and a one of her worst actual programs ever (a generic Bolero) and was still 3rd, but her short was clean and quite good and still placed behind flawed Slutskaya and Cohen. So there are different ways to look at it. And who knows how easy the higher level spins would have been for Kwan. She never really liked the bendy spins with lots of transitions.
    I said worst Worlds performance, not worst performance ever. You're right about the SP, and I think she was undermarked there. I do think skating in the the previous group to Cohen and Slute hurt her in PCS, and her clean SP wasn't as powerful as Nationals as she had to rush some of her elements to make up for longer spins and to keep up with the music, and she was still behind the music. Also, there's no denying that Cohen and Slute are better spinners and had an advantage on Kwan in that respect in a COP where it high levels were highly dependent on flexible positions.
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    The 2005 Worlds were also like a coronation for Slutskaya. She had the sentimental story, had won every event that season, was on her home ice. The short program made it clear she was going to be given the gold even if she did not deserve it (she did not deserve to win the short IMO). Thankfully she skated lights out enough in the long to leave no doubt to her victory, and avoiding a potential scandal of sorts. I would have had the short program: 1. Kostner (give her the edge because of her triple-triple and the extra points), 2. Kwan, 3. Cohen (smaller mistakes), 4. Slutskaya, but the judges had those as the top 4 in reverse order. It almost gave the impression of a somewhat pre determined event, but the long programs atleast justified the final placings.

    I did not like Slutskaya's spins under COP that much. She just Biellmanned everything and her Biellmans were never that great, they were only impressive before since few women back then did them and she could do that one combination on both feet. I prefered them under 6.0 actually, where she did a really fast and strong layback and some other nice spins without all the mediocre Biellmanns added on.

    I always liked Kwan's spins but under the rules she would have had to change them to get high levels under COP and unfortunately we never got to see how she would have done with that.

    Actually I forgot the early days and her rivalry with Lipinski. That might be the one case Kwan does even better under COP than 6.0. Hughes would also have a hard time managing her success or winning the 2002 Olympics under COP, but then again we dont know what adjustments she might have made (or Tara for that matter).

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    You are apparently trying to argue S/Z were far superior so in fact you are only adding to the argument it was an overhyped non rivalry (rivalries are people that are closely matched) which you supposably are trying to argue against.
    Actually no i did not post my opinion to which team was superior to the other, but at least trying to do so objectively. I was mentioning the fact that the 2 yr rivalry from 2002-2004 did exist to the judges, based purely on results and placements. So basically you are saying it was an overhyped rivalry only because it lasted for the first 2 seasons?
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Jumps (bigger), jump combinations, speed, at times Irina's footwork was as good or better (though both were excellent), at times command of the ice.
    Bigger jumps yes, but with little rideout, speed coming out. Also Slutskaya used tons of time setting up for jumps. Jump combos-Irina mostly underrotated her attempted 3+3's. Speed- both skaters evenly matched. Footwork- ok i'll give Slutskaya a slight edge on that. Command of the ice-..... What i meant to say with Kwan was she would probably fared better in COP up until 2003, when her technical abilities started waning. Why not? GOE's hello...
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    If Maria was the better skater the Russian federation would have backed her over Irina.
    No if Maria was the more consistent skater she would have gotten more backing. She was a true artist, and when competing against the likes of Kwan, Cohen, they needed that more than anything. Understandable that Slutskaya got more support since she actually landed more triples than Maria later in her career.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I agree with you, but I have never heard anyone suggest until now Kwan would have actually done even "better" under COP and I was responding to someone who said that which I found funny. The most anyone would try to argue until now is maybe she would have done just as well, most who argue in her defense on COP though say not quite as well but still extremely well (winning some major events).
    ] So lets say, from 1998-2002, you don't think Kwan would have done better under COP? Look at the ladies right now. Just because Mao does two 3Axels doesn't mean she'll win. The underrotated 3+3's that were done by some of the ladies during 2000-2002 would have hurt them already. Re Kwan I'm guessing she would score higher GOE's on jumps, spirals, and for spins maybe second or third considering judges love looking at the edge these days.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    Actually no i did not post my opinion to which team was superior to the other, but at least trying to do so objectively. I was mentioning the fact that the 2 yr rivalry from 2002-2004 did exist to the judges, based purely on results and placements. So basically you are saying it was an overhyped rivalry only because it lasted for the first 2 seasons?
    I just dont think it was a very good rivalry. It was supposed to last to 2006 but didnt for the reasons I said. It was basically cut off halfway through the Olympic quad due to the circumstances which already detracts a great deal from it. Rivalries that last only 2 seasons usually atleast end in the Olympic season. And there were few if any memorable confrontations when both teams skated great in both programs. Mostly Totmianina & Marinin won through their superior consistency when they did, they virtually always skated cleanly so when Shen & Zhou made any mistakes they were in trouble.


    Bigger jumps yes, but with little rideout, speed coming out. Also Slutskaya used tons of time setting up for jumps. Jump combos-Irina mostly underrotated her attempted 3+3's. Speed- both skaters evenly matched. Footwork- ok i'll give Slutskaya a slight edge on that. Command of the ice-..... What i meant to say with Kwan was she would probably fared better in COP up until 2003, when her technical abilities started waning. Why not? GOE's hello...
    You are already admiting that Irina had a potential edge on Kwan on more than just spins which was your initial comment. And the quality of Kwan's completed jumps and spins hadnt diminished any by 2005, so the GOEs she got at those Worlds are fairly reflective of what she would usually get. What had diminished alot was her ability to do as many triples, her consistency in the jumps, her ability to complex choreography, and her being unprepared for COP at the 2005 Worlds.


    No if Maria was the more consistent skater she would have gotten more backing. She was a true artist, and when competing against the likes of Kwan, Cohen, they needed that more than anything. Understandable that Slutskaya got more support since she actually landed more triples than Maria.
    Maria a true artist? To each their own. To me she was like a clumsy stork on ice. She landed many of her jumps with this big whip, she was stiff and not at all elegant or smooth. When you watch Kwan or Cohen you talk about how beautiful and elegant they look. When you look at Maria at times she looks very nice and artistic in her own way I guess with a maturity, but mostly it looks like hard work, stiff, jerky, and even clumsy at times. I actually dont think Maria was a particularly talented skater at all and she was a huge overachiever to achieve what she did in the sport.

    Do you really think Maria would have ever been any threat to Kwan even as the Russian #1. She only beat Kwan 2 times their whole careers, one of them was at Centennial on Ice when Kwan had the favor and fell in the short and landed 4 triples in the long (same # of Maria). The other was of course the 99 Worlds. And she had no chance against Kwan if Kwan skated cleanly.

    And Maria was not always as inconsistent as people make her out to be. In the 95-96, 96-97, and 97-98 seasons she was atleast as consistent as Irina or even moreso. Irina was still being backed as the Russian #1 and regularly beating Maria even when she made more mistakes and didnt land more triples than Maria. The Russian federation obviously always felt she was the more talented skater with more potential.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    ] So lets say, from 1998-2002, you don't think Kwan would have done better under COP? Look at the ladies right now. Just because Mao does two 3Axels doesn't mean she'll win. The underrotated 3+3's that were done by some of the ladies during 2000-2002 would have hurt them already. Re Kwan I'm guessing she would score higher GOE's on jumps, spirals, and for spins maybe second or third considering judges love looking at the edge these days.
    These are the significant events Kwan was in from 1998 to 2002:

    1998 Nationals- won

    1998 Olympics- this is the one event she might have done better under COP. I would have to analyze this closer though and what the base scores for Tara and Kwan were. One thing to remember though is unlike Hughes, Tara did not underrotate her jumps.

    1998 Worlds- won

    1999 Nationals- won

    1999 Worlds- she definitely would not have beaten Maria here under any scoring system. In fact her short program would have been alot worse than 4th under COP. A fall on a double axel, a very shaky combination that would require -1 or -2 in GOE from the judges, a triple toe solo jump, a weak layback. I am not sure she would have won any medal at these Worlds under COP so in fact 6.0 probably helped her win silver here.

    2000 Nationals- She probably still wins under COP even with her fall in the short

    2000 Grand Prix final- Irina would have clearly beaten her with the last numbers both skated anyway.

    2000 Worlds- Maria skated the best short program of her life and might have actually had more cushion over both Irina and Michelle and skated a better long under COP. Otherwise the results are the same probably.

    2001 Grand Prix final- no change that I see. Neither skated great but Irina did a better better in each round.

    2001 Nationals- Kwan won

    2001 Worlds- If Kwan's triple lutz combination in the short was deemed two footed by some of the judges, Irina actually might have taken a big lead after the short and it might have been hard for Kwan to win. Irina's triple-triple in the long was probably underrotated but if she had enough of a lead she probably wouldnt even try it. A triple toe-triple it not a big points collector under COP either. This is another event Kwan might have done worse at under COP.

    2002 Grand Prix final- Kwan should have won here anyway. Since the final round made it clear this was a cheating panel prepared to block judge anyway probably no difference.

    2002 Nationals- Kwan won

    2002 Olympics- Well FSU did a game on the 2002 Olympics short program and even though this is a strongly pro-Kwan forum Kwan ended up 5th in the short, 8 points behind Irina, and 4 points behind 2nd place Suguri I think it was. Draw your own conclusions.

    2002 Worlds- Irina would still win. She would have a huge lead after the short as she just killed the short here, and Kwan missed her combo. There longs wouldnt even score that differently probably, nothing that would make up the short program deficit.


    So to answer your question no. The only benefit is Kwan might have won the 98 Olympics. Kwan won 3 World titles and 5 National titles from 1998-2002, so it seems silly to suggest that she would have done "better" when she was winning almost everything important already.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    2002 Olympics- Well FSU did a game on the 2002 Olympics short program and even though this is a strongly pro-Kwan forum Kwan ended up 5th in the short, 8 points behind Irina, and 4 points behind 2nd place Suguri I think it was.
    That makes sense. To be honest this was probably the only time I thought Slutskaya was robbed...and for Olympic gold- Kwan's underrotated 3flip here should have given Slutskaya the lead after the SP and with the LP's as it was skated, the gold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    That makes sense. To be honest this was probably the only time I thought Slutskaya was robbed...and for Olympic gold- Kwan's underrotated 3flip here should have given Slutskaya the lead after the SP and with the LP's as it was skated, the gold.
    I actually am not sure who should have been 2nd in the LP though- Kwan or Slutskaya. I go back and forth on that. I agree Slutskaya should have won the short clearly. Hughes didnt deserve even 4th in the short so never should have been in the running for gold. Under COP if Hughes skating was the same she wouldnt have even medaled. Her triple-triples in the LP would have been downgraded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I agree with you, but I have never heard anyone suggest until now Kwan would have actually done even "better" under COP and I was responding to someone who said that which I found funny.
    Let me suggest that COP would have helped Miss Michelle when she needed it most. Consider this ………

    SHORT PROGRAM )…….. Skater A does much better than Skater B.
    FREE SKATE ) …...……… Skater B does just slightly better than Skater A.

    Under 6.0, Skater B ( Tara ) wins the gold.
    Under COP, Skater A ( Michelle ) wins the gold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polymer Bob View Post
    Let me suggest that COP would have helped Miss Michelle when she needed it most. Consider this ………

    SHORT PROGRAM )…….. Skater A does much better than Skater B.
    FREE SKATE ) …...……… Skater B does just slightly better than Skater A.

    Under 6.0, Skater B ( Tara ) wins the gold.
    Under COP, Skater A ( Michelle ) wins the gold.
    But if Michelle wins the 98 Olympic Gold does she continue onwards and became the legend and the greatest skater ever to some as she is now? There are some who believe she would have turned pro after the 98 season had she won in Nagano. There are others who believe she would have gone a year or two more after Nagano. There are others who believe she would have gone to SLC. There seems to be almost nobody who believes she would have gone beyond SLC if she were an Olympic Champion though so things like her 9 National titles wouldnt have happened, and she would be down to 4, 3, 2 World titles, maybe even 1 if she bypassed the 98 Worlds like Oly winner Tara (though I doubt Michelle would have done this).

    In the big picture of her legacy it might be even better she didnt win the 98 Olympic Gold, although for her own personal satisfaction who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    That makes sense. To be honest this was probably the only time I thought Slutskaya was robbed...and for Olympic gold- Kwan's underrotated 3flip here should have given Slutskaya the lead after the SP and with the LP's as it was skated, the gold.
    I agree that Slutskaya should have had the lead after the SP, but I don't think she was robbed of the gold. Since Kwan has a history of her best skates when she has to come from behind (usually, a great FS when she was behind after the SP, or -- in '05 -- a good SP when her QR sucked) and Slutskaya has her best FS when she is ahead of the SP, I think the chances that the LPs would have stayed the same are not good.

    Also, I doubt that CoP would have affected these "mindsets".

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    I remember reading multiple figure skating books written before the 1998 olympics which stated that michelle even in 1996 was speaking to the press of intending to stay to 2006. however the same was said of tara (not to mention plans of tara eventually planning to do quads in competition), of course as we know tara bowed out after olympic gold in 1998 so whatever kids and their coaches boast to the press about early on isn't exactly reliable in the long run..so who really knows how long Michelle would've stayed had she won the gold in 98.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    True though that Kwan's long was flawed and a one of her worst actual programs ever (a generic and lacking choreography Bolero which was amazingly choreographed by Dean)
    Please do not besmirch Dean's talent as a choreographer by attributing the Bolero that we saw at Nationals and Worlds to him. Dean's too talented to have come up with that snoozefest version.

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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    Please do not besmirch Dean's talent as a choreographer by attributing the Bolero that we saw at Nationals and Worlds to him. Dean's too talented to have come up with that snoozefest version.
    I take it you haven't seen the Duschenay's WSS?

    Even the most brilliant of choreographers can lay an egg. Although, I'm sure Bolero was better when he first choreographed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    -Kwan vs. Slutskaya—sorry, can't think of one single thing other than spins that Slutskaya was better than Kwan at. And I’m not even a Kwaniac.
    You really don't think Irina's jumps were better than Michelle's? Irina's jumps had height, power and distance. Michelle's jumps were nice, but no one would label them as powerful. Don't forget also Irina's one foot straight line step sequence in her SP down the length of the rink. Pretty amazing I thought. Throw in flexibility also as an area where Irina triumped over Michelle's. I enjoyed watching MK very much, but to say that Irina was only better than Michelle's at spins is silly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post
    I take it you haven't seen the Duschenay's WSS?

    Even the most brilliant of choreographers can lay an egg. Although, I'm sure Bolero was better when he first choreographed it.
    But the Bolero at Worlds was an egg that had been left outside to bake for at least 3 months under the hot sun . Seriously, does anyone think Dean came up with a program that was just stroke, sroke, jump and repeat? C'mon. Take a look at the debut of Bolero at the Cheesefest several months prior to Worlds. Now that was the version that Dean had a hand in. By the time Worlds rolled around, the program had been cut, chopped and rearranged to make it fit COP. I think Nicolai had a large hand in it. I absolutely hated the marching back-n-forth motion that Michelle did at the start of the program. Why did she drop the flirtatious and fun opening that she did at the Cheesefest?

    ETA: I only wish Michelle had been able to end her eligible career on a high note. She had many great programs during her reign, but unfortunately that Bolero crap will always be on my mind. To paraphrase something Dick Button used to say, "What you do last is what the judges [audience/fan] remember first".

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    I don't Think that 2005 Worlds is what most people automatically think of when they think of Kwan's career.
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    To Kwan's credit she is probably the only skater who could skate a program as terrible and empty as the Bolero program ended up by Worlds and do it with enough style and certain something to still get mid 7s on average in PCS. And I also liked it so much better at the Cheesefest, it is too bad it was apparently stripped down to nothing almost by Worlds.

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