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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Well it seems almost everyone is agreeing this was no rivalry, one way or the other. And while my view is the total opposite of yours the judges, NBC, and Debbie Wilkes obviously agreed with you I admit.
    It's strange, at the time, I saw the two of them as being evenly matched, and found many of S&P's victories contingent upon them either having more complex programs, making fewer mistakes, or some combination of the two . In retrospect, (to me) it feels as though B&S were the stronger team in terms of their basic skating skills ,unison, and overall composition.

    It is probably a similar case for K&P versus the Duschenays. I remember (I was only a kid at the time) that their rivalry was very hyped by CBS and the Duschenays were considered the technically proficient ones, and K&P were the ones who had the legacy, and were more considered more artistic. When I was older , and saw their programs again circa 2003 or so , I had a total WTF! moment . K&P were really the class of the feild , and I have trouble understanding the rivalry.

  2. #22
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    In Canada there was Stojko vs Browning (a pretty decent rivalry actually) and then the Buttle vs Sandhu rivalry that lasted a couple of years (where Buttle was mostly superior).

  3. #23

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    How does one define a rivalry? Is it only a rivalry if both sides, at the end of the day, got a relatively even number of wins? I moreso think of a rivalry as one where the two competitors had relatively close skill sets and you thought, at the time, that either of them reasonably could prevail on a given day. For that reason I think Johnny and Evan did have a bona fide rivalry through the 2007 season or so. But of course in hindsight it doesn't seem like much of a rivalry because Evan wound up getting all the big hardware and Johnny not so much.

    I don't know enough about Stojko/Eldredge to say. I know Elvis almost always beat Todd, but how did they place when both skated clean in the same competition?
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheylana View Post
    I don't know enough about Stojko/Eldredge to say. I know Elvis almost always beat Todd, but how did they place when both skated clean in the same competition?
    Off the top of my head instances where Todd skated atleast as cleanly and completed atleast as much content overall as Elvis:

    1995 Worlds- both had a fall, both threw in a jump late. Both had all the triples and 2 triple axels, but no quad. Elvis won.

    96-97 season Grand Prix final- Elvis landed a quad-triple but fell on his 2nd triple axel, stepped out of a triple loop and easily beat a squeeky clean Todd in the long program.

    97-98 season Grand Prix final- Elvis fell on his quad attempt. He still beat a clean Todd with both managing all the other triples. Elvis actually had alot of low and shaky landings too.

    98 Olympics short program- both were clean in the short. Elvis was hammered on the 2nd mark yet still beat Todd in the short based on much higher technical marks even with the same jumps.

    2000 Skate Canada- both made alot of mistakes. Both landed 4 triples. Elvis blew Todd away easily with scores in the 5.4 to 5.7 range vs 5.0 to 5.4 range for Todd.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pumba View Post
    Duchesnays vs Klimova/Ponomarenko and S/P vs B/S
    In both cases the superioroty of the latter was so evident.

    Goebel vs Pluschenko/Yagudin. This is simply ridiculous.
    Gotta agree about the Duschesnays vs. K&P. I was only like 6 when I watched them compete live, so I didn't really understand who was good and who was not that much, but watching their performances years later again on youtube I can definitely see K&P as the superior team. The Duschesnays had interesting programs, but are a little rougher around the edges. Goebel could be seen as a legitimate rival for Plushenko, since both were all jumps with not much else (USUALLY - I know there are exceptions for both). I wouldn't see him as a legitimate rival of Yagudin though since Yagudin had just as much technical skill as Tim and wayyy more artistic skill/complexity.

  6. #26
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    Off the top of my head instances where Todd skated atleast as cleanly and completed atleast as much content overall as Elvis:

    1995 Worlds- both had a fall, both threw in a jump late. Both had all the triples and 2 triple axels, but no quad. Elvis won.

    96-97 season Grand Prix final- Elvis landed a quad-triple but fell on his 2nd triple axel, stepped out of a triple loop and easily beat a squeeky clean Todd in the long program.

    97-98 season Grand Prix final- Elvis fell on his quad attempt. He still beat a clean Todd with both managing all the other triples. Elvis actually had alot of low and shaky landings too.

    98 Olympics short program- both were clean in the short. Elvis was hammered on the 2nd mark yet still beat Todd in the short based on much higher technical marks even with the same jumps.

    2000 Skate Canada- both made alot of mistakes. Both landed 4 triples. Elvis blew Todd away easily with scores in the 5.4 to 5.7 range vs 5.0 to 5.4 range for Todd.
    Interesting. I would place a clean Todd over a clean Elvis even factoring in the quad, but Elvis beating Todd with the same content? Does not compute. Todd had better technique in every category, IMO.

    The biggest non rivalry has to be Baiul versus any one else on the senior level. How she was gifted with a world and olympic gold is one of those questions for the ages. I always thought it was because she played the orphan card, was poorly costumed (olympics, anyway), had bad hair even though it was a bad hair era, and was homely to boot.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    Gotta agree about the Duschesnays vs. K&P. I was only like 6 when I watched them compete live, so I didn't really understand who was good and who was not that much, but watching their performances years later again on youtube I can definitely see K&P as the superior team. The Duschesnays had interesting programs, but are a little rougher around the edges. Goebel could be seen as a legitimate rival for Plushenko, since both were all jumps with not much else (USUALLY - I know there are exceptions for both). I wouldn't see him as a legitimate rival of Yagudin though since Yagudin had just as much technical skill as Tim and wayyy more artistic skill/complexity.
    Re: Plushenko -Goebel "legitimate rivalry"

    Since, as you put it they were both all jumps with not much else and it was rivalry, could you remind me a single competition Goebel took over Plushy because I can not remember any? Though I think a single winning start is not enough to call it "rivalry".

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    Mao vs. Yuna.

    Pre-2007 Mao was clearly better.
    2007-2008 Yuna was injured and Mao was inconsistent so they were more or less comparable.
    2009 onward Yuna was clearly better.

    They were only really neck in neck when Yuna was injured, all the other times, one girl has clearly been heavy edge to the other. Maybe now with the new 3a rules that will change, if Yuna chooses to compete again that is.

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    Prime Plushenko was overall a much stronger jumper than Goebel. The only jump Goebel had the edge on was the quad salchow by virtue of Plushenko not even doing that jump. Plushenko had the better quad toe, and by far was better at every triple jump. The triple axels of the two were not even on the same planet.

    Prime Plushenko was also a much stronger skater than Goebel. Even if you dont feel Plushenko had the artistry and even though Goebel improved his, Plushenko still has far better basic skating, speed, flow, command of the ice.

    And Plushenko's footwork in his prime even if not everyone loved it was actually quite intricate and fast. This certainly cant be said for Goebel.

    Overall you cant really compare the two as skaters. That is why they had no rivalry.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasolka View Post
    Re: Plushenko -Goebel "legitimate rivalry"

    Since, as you put it they were both all jumps with not much else and it was rivalry, could you remind me a single competition Goebel took over Plushy because I can not remember any? Though I think a single winning start is not enough to call it "rivalry".
    Goebel never beat Plushenko atleast not ever since the 96-97 Junior Worlds when Plushenko won and Goebel was 2nd. Tim didnt even come close to doing so at the 2002 Olympics when Tim had the competition of his life and Plushenko was injured and quite subpar. There were some who said they feel Goebel should have won the 2003 World title over Plushenko but watching the two performances again I am not sure what those people are smoking exactly.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Mao vs. Yuna.

    Pre-2007 Mao was clearly better.
    2007-2008 Yuna was injured and Mao was inconsistent so they were more or less comparable.
    2009 onward Yuna was clearly better.

    They were only really neck in neck when Yuna was injured, all the other times, one girl has clearly been heavy edge to the other. Maybe now with the new 3a rules that will change, if Yuna chooses to compete again that is.
    It's still a legitimate rivalry though because when they meet, they are always the top candidates for the title. Rochette, Ando, Kostner play as contenders at times but it's usually between the two Asian skaters.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Sale & Pelletier vs Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze- a media invented rivalry as the vastly inferior skills of S&P were somehow built up through hype and politics to be regularly beat and even made to be out as clearly above a superior team like B&S.
    So this was a rivalry, but not one that was presented the way you wanted it? Does that mean it doesn't count?

    I'd love to have "vastly inferior skills" if that meant I could use them to win Worlds, an Olympic gold medal, and several GP medals. "Vastly inferior skills" my *ss.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

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    Oh, overedge, I loved your post!


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    Interesting. I would place a clean Todd over a clean Elvis even factoring in the quad, but Elvis beating Todd with the same content? Does not compute. Todd had better technique in every category, IMO.

    Thank you, leesaleesa (and I respect both of them and do consider it a legitimate rivalry). Thank you, overedge for your latest comment.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    I'd love to have "vastly inferior skills" if that meant I could use them to win Worlds, an Olympic gold medal, and several GP medals.
    Hardly an impossible occurence, even if you arent as insanely overrated and politically pushed upwards as Sale & Pelletier were. Remember Annett Poetzsch? Or Vladimir Kovalev. Or Lobacheva & Averbuhk. Timing is everything in Sport.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Off the top of my head instances where Todd skated atleast as cleanly and completed atleast as much content overall as Elvis:

    1995 Worlds- both had a fall, both threw in a jump late. Both had all the triples and 2 triple axels, but no quad. Elvis won.

    96-97 season Grand Prix final- Elvis landed a quad-triple but fell on his 2nd triple axel, stepped out of a triple loop and easily beat a squeeky clean Todd in the long program.

    97-98 season Grand Prix final- Elvis fell on his quad attempt. He still beat a clean Todd with both managing all the other triples. Elvis actually had alot of low and shaky landings too.

    98 Olympics short program- both were clean in the short. Elvis was hammered on the 2nd mark yet still beat Todd in the short based on much higher technical marks even with the same jumps.

    2000 Skate Canada- both made alot of mistakes. Both landed 4 triples. Elvis blew Todd away easily with scores in the 5.4 to 5.7 range vs 5.0 to 5.4 range for Todd.
    Thanks for this summary. I guess it wasn't much of a rivalry. I liked Elvis well enough in his day, but aside from his quad I didn't think his skills were superior to Todd's. I never thought the judges particularly cared for Elvis but I guess they liked Todd even less. Of course they did compete during the quad-obsessed 90s. Perhaps the judges respected Elvis more because he had a quad in his arsenal, versus Todd who was basically quadless his entire career?
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    It's still a legitimate rivalry though because when they meet, they are always the top candidates for the title. Rochette, Ando, Kostner play as contenders at times but it's usually between the two Asian skaters.
    True. Miki is asian too though .

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    Goebel vs Pluschenko/Yagudin. This is simply ridiculous.
    I don't think ANYONE other than Scott Hamilton was dumb enough to consider this a rivalry.

  19. #39
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    Talking abot the Duchesnay vs Klimova/Ponomarenko rivalry - everytime when I rewatch the competitions I'm amazed how inferior in their skating skills D/D were in comparison with all 3 Russian couples. I would have placed them in the same league if not lower than the Italians, or team of Finland. Dean's choreo was the only remarkable thing about them. And it surprises me that by the Olys time they not only were considered the main rivals for K/P, but how easily they've passed Usova/Zhulin and Grischuk/Platov (not to mention the 3 strong European teams), though their sakting skills were at least not that great.
    The same happened with Sale/Pelletier by the time of the 2002 Games. Its amazing how easily they passed the teams like Petrova/Tikhonov, or Shen/Zhao to be considered the only and the ultimate rivals for the gold with Elena and Anton.
    So imho both D/D and S/P are the most overhyped couples in their respective disciplines, and their rivalry with K/P and B/S was nothing but an agitation of attention prior the Games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Hardly an impossible occurence, even if you arent as insanely overrated and politically pushed upwards as Sale & Pelletier were. Remember Annett Poetzsch? Or Vladimir Kovalev. Or Lobacheva & Averbuhk. Timing is everything in Sport.
    Yes, I do remember all of them, and my argument stands.
    You can be "insanely overrated" and "politically pushed" but you still have to have the skills to at least look like a legitimate contender at that level. And everyone you've named so far was more than qualified to compete internationally, even if you personally don't agree with where they were placed.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

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