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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    None of them every suggested anything other than there was a deal made to keep B&K off the podium.
    Ah... the deal again.. keep them off podium ...

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    L&A made a huge tactical error in going for the jive.
    Ilya explained that they chose jive because the rules changed before that. There were a lot of "dying" dances around, stories with slow music, grief on ice and longlife tragedy. The new ice dance concept wanted dances to bring positive and optimistic feeling and use the actual dance music. L/A chose jive.

  3. #203
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    Huh. Here I always thought Kwan v Slutskaya was one of the great rivalries. On any given night, either could of won. I always thought they were equally good in their own way.

  4. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Ah... the deal again.. keep them off podium ...
    The deal was the subject of an ISU investigation in 1998. Two judges were suspended.

    I know you like to pretend none of this stuff ever happened but it did. Everyone but you seems to know about it.

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    L&A 2003 in DC

    But L&A didn't skate to jive, which was a 40's dance. They skated to 1950's rock, with the exception of the embarrasing Surfin' Bird song by the Trashmen that they opened with, which was from 1963. And they skated it in Dayglo chartreuse costumes.

    Yeah, everyone knows what "the bird" is-it's the NY state bird

    And in DC, many people thought they had the dance entirely wrong, plus the costumes were way embarrassing. Not to mention wondering what they were trying to say by skating to The Bird.

    There were 30 leven cuts in their FD, none of them, none of which had any coherent relationship to any other.

    And there were mistakes in the lifts, AFAIR.

    So the applause was polite, but not great.

    It was indeed worse that B&A had skated a coherent, credible 50's rock program to Elvis prior to L&A taking the ice.

    But it was also worse that the whole program was skewed so that Ilia was facing the judges, in an attempt to distract attention from Irina (injury and all). She, therefore, was facing most of the crowd, because the whole section above the judges was cordoned off, because of the US just starting the Iraq war and worries about different sorts of violence possibly breaking out. So the most of the crowd saw very little of Ilia's entertaining mugging, and saw a lot of Irina's bad knee.

  6. #206
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    Dorispulaski, your beautiful description made me want to re-watch their FD and man talk about awkward.

    Their FD was worse than I remember, but that crowd reaction just made the whole thing even more uncomfortable to sit through. Everything just fell flat (and for good reason).
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by pumba View Post
    It was a shame the audience was so silent during L/A Worlds performance. But I guess it was not quite L/A's fault. A month before they had a huge success at Euros skating the same programs probably with less technical spark. The applause never ended. You should see one of the judges' reaction on Ilia's performance in the OD .
    Indeed the top-5 teams at 2003 Worlds were nearly equal. Though I would have given the win to L/A because of the difficulty (they won all the 3 phases of competition, including the LP actually), and B/K mistake in the OD.
    And as for B/K I never noticed anything particularly original about them, probably Shae-Lynn's signature head shaking should be considered their "trick". There was always something missing in what they were showing. For me they were a bit more enhanced version of say Winkler/Lohse, with greater ambitions and incomparably stronger federation.
    The crowd at Worlds 2003 was very rude in my opinion. It was as if they intentionally did not clap to L&A because not to give their programs a "lift" so to say. Like even if the clapped out of politeness it could damage the chances of B&K to win.
    I agree with one of the previous posters that it was very bad year for ice dance and nobody particularly deserved to win.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosjenka View Post
    The crowd at Worlds 2003 was very rude in my opinion. It was as if they intentionally did not clap to L&A because not to give their programs a "lift" so to say. Like even if the clapped out of politeness it could damage the chances of B&K to win.
    Or maybe the program fell flat, and some of us just weren't impressed.
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  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by leesaleesa View Post
    Huh. Here I always thought Kwan v Slutskaya was one of the great rivalries. On any given night, either could of won. I always thought they were equally good in their own way.
    I always thought this was a less than great rivalry because Michelle had the edge. They were never really considered equal skaters - Irina was generally seen as inferior and many even criticized her athleticism (her advantage) by saying she skated like a truck-driver (I was in a minority - I loved Irina and preferred her to Michelle).

    Out of all the times they competed, how many wins did each have?

  10. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I always thought this was a less than great rivalry because Michelle had the edge. They were never really considered equal skaters - Irina was generally seen as inferior and many even criticized her athleticism (her advantage) by saying she skated like a truck-driver (I was in a minority - I loved Irina and preferred her to Michelle).

    Out of all the times they competed, how many wins did each have?
    Slutskaya finished ahead of Kwan at

    1996 Centennial on Ice
    1999-2000 GPF
    2000 Skate Canada
    2000-2001 GPF
    2001 Goodwill Games
    2001 Skate Canada
    2001-2002 GPF
    2002 Winter Olympics
    2002 Worlds
    2005 Worlds

    Short program leads at 2000 and 2001 Worlds might as well be mentioned. I don't know how many times Kwan finished ahead of Slutskaya.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  11. #211
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    Excluding cheesefests which I dont keep track of the head to head matchups I can think of between Kwan and Slutskaya:

    1994 Junior Worlds- Kwan
    1995 Worlds- Kwan
    1995 Skate America- Kwan
    1996 Centennial on Ice- Slutskaya
    1996 Grand Prix final- Kwan
    1996 Worlds- Kwan
    1997 Grand Prix final- Kwan
    1997 Worlds- Kwan
    1998 Olympics- Kwan
    1998 Worlds- Kwan
    1998 Goodwill Games- Kwan
    2000 Grand Prix final- Slutskaya
    2000 Worlds- Kwan
    2000 Skate Canada- Slutskaya
    2001 Grand Prix final- Slutskaya
    2001 Worlds- Kwan
    2001 Goodwill Games- Slutskaya
    2001 Skate Canada- Slutskaya
    01-02 Grand Prix final- Slutskaya
    2002 Olympics- Slutskaya
    2002 Worlds- Slutskaya
    2004 Worlds- Kwan
    2005 Worlds- Slutskaya

    I am sure I am forgetting something along the way but based on the non cheesefests I remember it would be 13-10 Kwan. I would say that is definitely a rivalry. Especialy since Irina in fact won most of their meetings from 2000 onwards when she became a gold threat which is how she overcame an early 10-1 deficit to make it close in the end.

    If Irina had won the 2006 Olympics and 2006 Worlds there would be a real argument for Irina being the most successful skater of this era over Kwan (I didnt say neccessarily the best which can be different than the most successful of course, and I for one much prefer Kwan's skating to Irina's). If she had even won 1 of the 2000 or 2001 Worlds she was favored to it would even be very close between the two overall.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    Short program leads at 2000 and 2001 Worlds might as well be mentioned. I don't know how many times Kwan finished ahead of Slutskaya.
    One funny thing is Irina lost each of the 2000 Worlds, 2001 Worlds, 2002 Olympics, 2006 Olympics to someone who she was leading after the short program. However in everyone of those cases except the 2001 Worlds it was not her leading after the short either, it was Butyrskaya in 2000, Kwan in 2002, and Cohen in 2006. And in 2 of those cases of course the short program leader dropped all the way to 3rd.

    Another funny thing is 3 times in Irina's career she entered her final free skate as the whole difference maker to the entire event. 97 Worlds the scenario was if she was 1st in the free skate she would win silver, Tara would win gold even with only 3rd in the long, and Kwan would drop to bronze. If she were 3rd in the free skate like she was she would not medal, Tara would hang onto gold, and Kwan silver even with winning the long. And if she were 2nd in the free skate she would win bronze, Kwan would pass Tara for gold, and Tara would win silver. And of course at the 2000 Worlds and 2002 Olympics the winner could have been either here, the leader at that point, or the leader in the free skate depending how she fared and was placed.

  13. #213

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    [QUOTE=judgejudy27;2848389]Excluding cheesefests which I dont keep track of the head to head matchups I can think of between Kwan and Slutskaya:
    2004 Worlds- Kwan
    2005 Worlds- Slutskaya
    2003 Worlds for Kwan as well.

  14. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    2003 Worlds for Kwan as well.
    Slutskaya had to miss 2003 Worlds due to her mother's illness. Kwan finished way ahead of her the next year (3rd vs. 9th), but by then Slutskaya was ill.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by leesaleesa View Post
    Huh. Here I always thought Kwan v Slutskaya was one of the great rivalries. On any given night, either could of won. I always thought they were equally good in their own way.
    I did too. I didn't particularly enjoy either of them (I found Kwan dull and slow, and Slutskaya sloppy) but both had their pluses and minuses and to me it could go either way quite easily.

  16. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by screech View Post
    I did too. I didn't particularly enjoy either of them (I found Kwan dull and slow, and Slutskaya sloppy) but both had their pluses and minuses and to me it could go either way quite easily.
    I take it you never saw them skate in person?

    Kwan was NOT slow (very, VERY deep in the ice, which somehow doesn't translate well on TV). Slutskaya was VERY dynamic.

    O-

  17. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    The deal was the subject of an ISU investigation in 1998. Two judges were suspended.

    I know you like to pretend none of this stuff ever happened but it did. Everyone but you seems to know about it.

    IIRC, the deal in place was supposed to help B&K. Both Jean Senft and Yuri Balkov were caught/suspended for negotiating in favor of them winning the bronze. Once they
    watered down their OD from GPF that season and had mistakes in their first CD, it wasn't going to happen for them even if they beat A&P in the FD (which they did). Jean Senft gave them a ridiculously high ordinal in the FD, while giving A&P a ridiculously low one, in order to try and still give B&K the bronze. She was cited for personal/national bias, and then became a "whistleblower" on Balkov when she didn't get her own way.

    I will never understand how she was made into such a martyr.
    Last edited by escaflowne9282; 08-20-2010 at 06:38 AM.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    I know you like to pretend none of this stuff ever happened but it did. Everyone but you seems to know about it.
    You are rudeness knows no bounds.
    The deal was the subject of an ISU investigation in 1998. Two judges were suspended.
    So what? After the 1993 world championships, six of the nine judges were suspended for scoring based on dancers' reputations rather than how they performed in the competition. All six came back to judging. Three of them made it to Lillehammer to judge at the 1994 Winter Games. To play dirty is not a news in FS. I know you like to pretend none of this stuff ever happened but it did. Everyone but you seems to know about it. Nowdays, with the current judging system it is easier than ever to cheat- a judge is never caught and therefore cannot be suspended. Safe play.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post

    IIRC, the deal in place was supposed to help B&K. Both Jean Senft and Yuri Balkov were caught/suspended for negotiating in favor of them winning the bronze. Once they
    watered down their OD from GPF that season and had mistakes in their first CD, it wasn't going to happen for them even if they beat A&P in the FD (which they did). Jean Senft gave them a ridiculously high ordinal in the FD, while giving A&P a ridiculously low one, in order to try and still give B&K the bronze. She was cited for personal/national bias, and then became a "whistleblower" on Balkov when she didn't get her own way.
    Thank you. I am a little bored to reply to our internet commentator DL. Who sees dirt only when it comes from her unfavourites and damages her favourites.

    I will never understand how she was made into such a martyr.
    Probably because unlike Balkov she did not make an Olympic comeback. So, she is a "martyr".

  20. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Probably because unlike Balkov she did not make an Olympic comeback. So, she is a "martyr".
    Once again, you're trying to rewrite history.

    The deal was to keep B&K from medalling at all by placing them 5th in the CD.

    Senft wasn't back judging at the Olympics because Dave Dore refused to send her to another international event after her suspension. She was reduced to judging Canadian Sectionals. After Dore became the VP of the ISU, his successors did send her to international events but only on a limited basis.

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