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  1. #101

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    I loved Elaine's comeback in 1994. She skated great--much better than anyone (myself included) expected from her.

    (The only thing I didn't like was that floppy ponytail on top of her head! But that's probably just me...)

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    In many ways, Elaine really was a pioneer.

    Her programs just in terms of COP content alone, would stand - up today.

    Also, once it was understood that triple jumps would become a necessary part of women's competitive skating, this paved the way for others like Liz Manley, Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, Jeri Campbell, etc.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    (The only thing I didn't like was that floppy ponytail on top of her head! But that's probably just me...)
    That ponytail really suited her personality at the time.

    Just as Jayne Torvill cut her hair for Lillehammer, there was a part of me that craved seeing Elaine sport her Olivia Newton John inspired do in Detroit as well.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    In many ways, Elaine really was a pioneer.

    Her programs just in terms of COP content alone, would stand - up today.
    How so when jumpwise all Elaine had were 3toes and 3sals and an occasional 3loop ? Yes she did a lot of transitions going into them but they were still only toes and sals.

    Also, once it was understood that triple jumps would become a necessary part of women's competitive skating, this paved the way for others like Liz Manley, Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, Jeri Campbell, etc.
    Linda Fratianne made triple jumps necessary for female figure skaters.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I loved Elaine's comeback in 1994. She skated great--much better than anyone (myself included) expected from her.

    (The only thing I didn't like was that floppy ponytail on top of her head! But that's probably just me...)
    I would've given Elaine a more sophisticated look in her LP.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    How so when jumpwise all Elaine had were 3toes and 3sals and an occasional 3loop ? Yes she did a lot of transitions going into them but they were still only toes and sals.



    Linda Fratianne made triple jumps necessary for female figure skaters.
    Linda had her two triple jumps each year in her LP but so did Anett and Dagmar (who had sal and loop) and Emi etc. Linda was the most consistent with them though for sure. But Elaine was the first to land triple jumps in difficult combinations such as 2z-3t and 2x-3t which even today 30 years after Elaine introduced it, is seen as a top drawer combo for ladies. And her loop was a lot more than just occasional. Sure she struggled with it a bit in '82 when her weight was up and down but it's not like she landed it once or twice. She was also one of the first ladies skaters - along with Ito in 1980 - to deliver programs with 5 - 6 triples in. Even with the Zayak rule, Elaine could regularly deliver 5 triple LP's, something many skaters 10 years later still couldn't do. So yes she absolutely was a pioneer.

    "Still only toes and sals" might be a valid comment (i.e. not good enough) on a ladies jump content today but back then that was really SOMETHING. And her transitions and combinations only served to make them even harder.

  7. #107
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    Who was the best women jumper in the World in the early 80s? Was it Zayak, Biellmann, Witt, or a young Ito who was competing as a junior?

  8. #108
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    Well obviously it was Ito She had all triples bar the axel by the end of 1981!!

    Witt was good for the era and at some point regularly trained 4 different triples but we only saw a triple loop twice IIRC at 1983 Euros (fall) and 1987 Worlds (won the title with it). She tried her flip more often but it was only ever totally clean at 1981 Worlds and that was a tight landing. All the others were two-footed or fall outs I think.

    Biellmann had toe, sal, loop and lutz but I never did see all 4 in the same LP at Worlds or Euros. Plus she was off to Holiday on Ice in the summer of '81 and with that went her harder triples.

  9. #109
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    Wow I never knew Ito had the triple lutz and triple flip that early. I do know she was doing huge triple-triple combinations and other jump combinations at that age but I didnt know she already had a full set of triples that young.

    Whenever I watched Biellmann as a pro skater well into her 30s I was always surprised to see her only doing triple toe and triple salchow at that point. The jumps were so big and she did them so easily you figure she could have done all the triples, especialy when you saw Kristi still landing these tiny triple lutzes and triple flips with devastating consistency at the same time.

    Witt seemed to gradually regress as a jumper as she began growing a very womenly figure.

  10. #110
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    Here's Midori's exhibition from the 1981 NHK. She does 2x-3t, 3z, 3r and 3f before more huuuge double axels to finish. Just jaw-droppingly amazing!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMy_o...ext=1&index=26

    This was skated a month before she landed the worlds first 3-3 by a lady at World Juniors.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    Here's Midori's exhibition from the 1981 NHK. She does 2x-3t, 3z, 3r and 3f before more huuuge double axels to finish. Just jaw-droppingly amazing!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMy_o...ext=1&index=26

    This was skated a month before she landed the worlds first 3-3 by a lady at World Juniors.
    Thanks. Sometimes I get amazed Ito didnt enter senior events really until 1984 then I remember she was still only 14 in 1984. She was so far ahead of her time it is ridiculous.

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Whenever I watched Biellmann as a pro skater well into her 30s I was always surprised to see her only doing triple toe and triple salchow at that point. The jumps were so big and she did them so easily you figure she could have done all the triples, especialy when you saw Kristi still landing these tiny triple lutzes and triple flips with devastating consistency at the same time.
    I think I once saw her do a triple lutz at a pro competition in her late 20s, but basically she had given up the triple lutz and loop after she turned pro (and never had the triple flip).

    There was something weird about her arm position in the rotational jumps that probably prevented her from rotating as fast as she might have with more modern technique, so she needed all that height and distance she got on the triple toe and salchow to complete the rotations.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    Here's Midori's exhibition from the 1981 NHK. She does 2x-3t, 3z, 3r and 3f before more huuuge double axels to finish. Just jaw-droppingly amazing!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMy_o...ext=1&index=26

    This was skated a month before she landed the worlds first 3-3 by a lady at World Juniors.
    It's not just the content, which is amazing enough; but, her "joy in skating" it, which is special.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    But Elaine was the first to land triple jumps in difficult combinations such as 2z-3t and 2x-3t which even today 30 years after Elaine introduced it, is seen as a top drawer combo for ladies. And her loop was a lot more than just occasional. Sure she struggled with it a bit in '82 when her weight was up and down but it's not like she landed it once or twice. She was also one of the first ladies skaters - along with Ito in 1980 - to deliver programs with 5 - 6 triples in. Even with the Zayak rule, Elaine could regularly deliver 5 triple LP's, something many skaters 10 years later still couldn't do. So yes she absolutely was a pioneer.

    "Still only toes and sals" might be a valid comment (i.e. not good enough) on a ladies jump content today but back then that was really SOMETHING. And her transitions and combinations only served to make them even harder.
    Yes, thank you!!! As far as I am concerned, Elaine has never gotten the recognition she so richly deserves for her overall skating, which includes being a triple jump pioneer. Some seem to think that all she did was skate up the ice, perform a triple toe, skate back down the ice and do a triple sal. Now thanks to old video, FSVids and Youtube, we can see that she was MUCH more than that. The USFSA should be bowing down to this lady for representing her country with her talent and her sportsmanship. No matter how badly they or anyone else bad-mouthed her, she was class personified.

    And I too was in tears in 1994 at her comeback. That US Nationals was full of drama as everyone remembers, but it is Elaine's programs and the crowd's response to them that made 1994 memorable for me, not the Nancy/Tonya drama nor the ice dance controversy. And I was so happy that Dick Button as announcer gave her all the kudos she deserved. I was jumping up and down in my living room crying, I was so happy for Elaine.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    It's not just the content, which is amazing enough; but, her "joy in skating" it, which is special.
    You are absolutely on the money. Midori Ito was very much ahead of her time on jump content, but it her joy and heart as much as her technical ability that makes her special to me.

  15. #115

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    pollyanna,
    entire post:

    Thank you!

  16. #116

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    There are not that many skaters even today who could skate either Elaine's or Midori's programs from the early 1980's. I still love Elaine's double axels sandwiched between spread eagles!

  17. #117
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    Thanks floskate, pollyanna, and DORIS, for going into bat for me regarding orbitz's criticism of my statement about Elaine.

    Thank god for youtube, where we can actually witness what skaters like Elaine and company were doing, instead of getting some secondhand nonsense from the likes of Evy Scotvold claiming that all Elaine's programs consisted of were triple toe...triple toe...triple toe.

  18. #118

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    It does make one wonder though why Evy Scotvold felt compelled to say that. He was well aware of what Elaine could and couldn't do. It's one thing to dislike Elaine or her skating style, and quite another thing to lie about it. Did the Scotvolds coach Lisa Marie Allen or Priscilla Hill or Sandy Lenz or something?

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    It does make one wonder though why Evy Scotvold felt compelled to say that. He was well aware of what Elaine could and couldn't do. It's one thing to dislike Elaine or her skating style, and quite another thing to lie about it. Did the Scotvolds coach Lisa Marie Allen or Priscilla Hill or Sandy Lenz or something?
    I know the Scotvolds trained Lenz. My guess is his statement smacks of jealousy.

    After all, Zayak (who placed 4th at the 1980 US Nationals) was elected to the World team over Lenz, who was third, and chosen to skate at the Lake Placid Olympics.

    I'm not sure who coached Hill or Allen.

  20. #120

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    It's perhaps worth mentioning that Elaine's coach, Peter Burrows, had not had a championship quality skater before AFAIR, and was no Carlo Fassi or even an Evy Scotvold in terms of political power. So Elaine would have been at a political disadvantage from the get go. Roz's coach Lorraine Borman, AFAIR, hadn't had an elite level skater either. However, Roz's family was quite well to do, and Elaine's was not. I seem to remember Roz reporting at one time shopping for a fur coat to console herself for a less than her best performance, AFAIR

    (Really, it appears they didn't do the PR coaching of these kids then that they do now, so interviews were much more interesting then )

    This is all 30 years ago, so don't count on my remembering all this stuff perfectly.

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