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  1. #81

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    That's OK.

    BTW, the way the Olympics SP was aired, first there was the Up CLose and Personal interview skateboy posted,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Eqk6PoS1M

    and immediately after the interview, Elaine skated (live, I think?):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2nzC7d_9-o

    In the post interview (shown at the end of the above clip), Dick is particularly nice to Elaine. During the commentary, Peggy is rather subdued, as I'm sure anyone would be. Typically in a live event, the commentators I believe hear what's aired immediately before they are on the air, so Peggy's commentary in the SP should be viewed in the light of Elaine's interview about her foot. And of course, if it was tape delayed, Peggy would probably have seen the interview before commentating.

    For those who want to catch up on Elaine today, there was an interview with her in March 2010 by lifeskate.com

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPenQi3Lvmo
    Last edited by DORISPULASKI; 08-09-2010 at 11:46 AM.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Note that there was nothing IMO lacking in Janet Lynn's skating, either artistically or athletically. And Dorothy says so,too. So Dorothy's idea of what Peggy Fleming stuff might be was about some other quality (than artistry or athletics) in a skating performance. There isn't any better word for it than "Peggy Fleming stuff" perhaps.
    Maybe "elegance," which is only one brand of artistry. So to be lacking that doesn't mean that the skater is lacking in general. But it's not a realistic style for everyone to aspire to.

  3. #83

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    Maybe elegance...although I'm not quite sure that's exactly it either.

    A acquaintance of mine saw the ladies LP at Peggy's Olympics. If you recall, Peggy did not skate a particularly inspired LP. However, my friend said Peggy made all the other women "look like cows". And this was a woman that said that.

    It's also important to recall that Peggy dropped nearly all technical content upon retiring, preferring to rely entirely on that quality. A single axel/one and a half flip was the height of her athletic difficulty after a few years. Perhaps a double something or other occasionally. She relied on well-cut, long, flowy dresses with shredded skirts, lovely arm movements, and the impact of her striking looks to substitute for techical difficulty. (By 1983 (coincidentally, just under 20 years after her Olympic victory.), when Peggy was the female lead in "Ice" with Toller Cranston and Robin Cousins at Radio City), she did not get good reviews. Toller, who, granted is known for snarkiness more than accuracy, described it this way:

    P. 168, Zero Tollerance:

    The reviews were published, and the show was a rave. The show was a hit. The show was the best skating show that had ever een, with one exception: Peggy Fleming was roasted en brochette.. Vivisected by The New York Post. She just didn't belong. Time had passed her by. The Olympic title and an incredible dress did not cut it. That reception jaundiced the entire run for her, I think, because she realized she couldn't suddenly make up for the time that she hadn't spent practicing. It was too late.
    and again on p. 170:

    When I arrived at Radio City, numbers of die-hards would be training. Robin rehearsed, but I would have been there earlier. The chorus always rehearsed, because it was the greatest chorus ever assembled in the history of the world. I never saw Peggy Fleming practice.
    Peggy was perhaps feeling a bit vulnerable to all the young upstarts at that point.
    Last edited by DORISPULASKI; 08-09-2010 at 09:38 PM.

  4. #84
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    Thank-you for that. i did not know that Fleming had such problems keeping up after winning the ollympics. is there any videos on her skating in shows?

  5. #85
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    The sad part is that she did work with Curry, and jumps were never the thing with him or his Compny. For whatever reason, Fleming was never accepted in that mode, when she was a natural for it.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by vassily View Post
    Thank-you for that. i did not know that Fleming had such problems keeping up after winning the ollympics. is there any videos on her skating in shows?
    Here ya' go...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXRJe...eature=related

  7. #87
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    DorisP wrote about Peggy Fleming and her treatment on Elaine Zayak and what it might have looked like after 84 Olympics:

    "There was no way Peggy was going on an anti Elaine jihad when she was the only US entrant. Also when all the audience knew about Elaine's foot, it would probably look like a bit beating up on a disabled person, too."

    Not sure what you mean here Doris. ABC didn't have the contract to show worlds after Sarajevo Olympics, CBS did, so Peggy would not have had the chance to do any commentary about Elaine at 84 worlds.

  8. #88

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    Abc def had the rights to the Olympics in 84.

  9. #89

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    I'm talking about the SP & the LP at Olympics, which were aired after the foot interview. This was in response to a poster who claimed that Peggy's SP commentary (which included the 'improved a very little bit' comment) showed Peggy being nice to Elaine.

    After that tearjerker of an up close and personal, there is no way that Peggy could really get away with being her usual bitchy self. At that, she was still not particularly complimentary. Dick OTOH gushed. Really gushed.

    John Mischa Petkevich and John Tesh (who found it almost impossible to pronounce the words "John Mischa Petkevich" ) were the commentators for CBS for 1984 worlds. I wasn't sure whether ABC did any Wide World of Sports commentary about 1984 worlds as part of their "news" segments, and whether Dick & Peggy or just Dick and Jim McKay would have done the news. I was at 1984 Worlds, so I didn't see it on TV until the wonder of youtube and fsvids. I thought perhaps that's what the poster was referring to.

    After 1984 worlds, Elaine retired until her 1994 comeback, followed by her second retirement. By 1994, Peggy was seldom seen skating (it being 30 years since her Olympic victory). At that, you will see in she is still selling the, "Elaine now agrees triple jumps aren't important," line.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    By 1994, Peggy was seldom seen skating (it being 30 years since her Olympic victory). At that, you will see in she is still selling the, "Elaine now agrees triple jumps aren't important," line.
    Elaine didn't say triple jumps weren't important, although Peggy did imply she said that. Elaine talked about how she started the whole triple jump craze (true), but then jokingly said something like, "now these girls have to do so many triple jumps, it's terrible!"

  11. #91
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    Didnt Elaine skate pro for a bit after the 94 Olympics too. Maybe Elaine would have done better in 83 and 84 if figures didnt exist.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Didnt Elaine skate pro for a bit after the 94 Olympics too. Maybe Elaine would have done better in 83 and 84 if figures didnt exist.
    Elaine would have done better in 83 and 84 if she was in better shape. Elaine was in great shape in 94. That the shape she should've been in during her hey days in the mid 80s. I also think Peter Burrows and Lynn Gelderman didn't package Elaine very well.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    ....I also think Peter Burrows and Lynn Gelderman didn't package Elaine very well.
    I remember reading in a book (which has been mentioned before on this board about Lady Figure Skaters and Gymnasts), 'Little Girls in pretty Boxes' [I think that was the title] that Elaine Zayak was Peter and Lynn's first big skater, that they were 'learning as they went along'. I also assumed that they were not only amateurs in packaging, but in the world of skating politik

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Didnt Elaine skate pro for a bit after the 94 Olympics too. Maybe Elaine would have done better in 83 and 84 if figures didnt exist.
    She had problems doing world elite level figures because of the foot. But I suspect that it was intense figure training that allowed her to become a great free skater in spite of the foot.

    That is, I really doubt that a young girl (with the same foot problem) starting to skate in the 90's would ever become competitive at the world level with MITF training. ymmv.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    Elaine would have done better in 83 and 84 if she was in better shape. Elaine was in great shape in 94. That the shape she should've been in during her hey days in the mid 80s. I also think Peter Burrows and Lynn Gelderman didn't package Elaine very well.
    While I'm not a woman, I would assume it is easier to get into prime physical shape at 28 when the body is fully matured than it would have been for Elaine back in 83-84 when she was 16-18 and puberty wanted her body to go in completely the opposite direction to the one she may have wanted!

    As an aside to the whole Peggy Fleming debate here, I was just reading an old old back issue of Ice and Roller Skate from 1982 when a letter to the editor caught my attention. It did so because the letter was written by someone I now know quite well. It was written in reply to a Worlds report the previous issue by Alex McGowan who used to write for Ice and Roller. Anyway here's the gist:

    What I'm writing about concerns Alex McGowan's comment on elaine Zayak that; ''maybe the critics, especially in the USA, will lay off her and her coach and instead be proud of this gutsy kid who brought them a World Championship''.

    I'm glad someone has said out loud what I've felt for some time now, and that is: leave Elaine Zayak alone! She has been criticized too much in the past; no one needs that kind of humiliation. The most visual, and certainly the biggest, Elaine critic IMO is Peggy Fleming. Peggy has some idealistic thoughts about ladies skating which do not apply in today's world. Someone has to get Peggy out of the Stone Age world of ladies figure skating and bring her into the competitive reality of the 1980's.
    With someone with the profile of McGowan speaking out against the critisism of Elaine, I do wonder if anything was ever said to Peggy regarding her comments on her?

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    While I'm not a woman
    For some reason I've always had this image of floskate as a middle age woman with greyish hair in a bun. I think it's because the 'flo' in your screen name reminded me of the Flo "Kiss My Grit" character from the TV show Alice . I now have to picture you in a different way.


    -----

    Regarding the criticisms leveled towards Elaine and other skaters. I don't think a skater or any athelete will have motivation to improve if they never hear any constructive criticisms about them.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    For some reason I've always had this image of floskate as a middle age woman with greyish hair in a bun. I think it's because the 'flo' in your screen name reminded me of the Flo "Kiss My Grit" character from the TV show Alice . I now have to picture you in a different way.


    -----

    Regarding the criticisms leveled towards Elaine and other skaters. I don't think a skater or any athelete will have motivation to improve if they never hear any constructive criticisms about them.
    Firstly I'm 36, male and running in the opposite direction of middle age thankyou!!

    Secondly, how is someone saying you're fat constructive? Some of the stuff that was said about Elaine was downright cruel back in the day.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    With someone with the profile of McGowan speaking out against the critisism of Elaine, I do wonder if anything was ever said to Peggy regarding her comments on her?
    That quote was great, because I think many had that sentiment about Peggy's commentary regarding Elaine. It was just so harsh. And it appears Peggy was 'talked to' about it, but she only responded by giving half-compliments ("Elaine has improved her style, a LITTLE...") that only seemed cursory. Even after Elaine brought the house down in Sarajevo and the crowd was excited, a very unexcited Peggy said "Good, but not great" wrt the performance, like wth?

  19. #99

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    I've always believed that Peggy thought that Ladies skating should be "graceful"; and well, "ladylike"!
    I don't think that she really approved of triples and "power" in Women's skating; unless very well disguised.

    Elaine didn't fit her idealized image, or concept of what was appropriate, in any way.
    She was the first of many!

    floskate,
    whole post
    Last edited by skatesindreams; 08-12-2010 at 05:50 PM.

  20. #100
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    Zayak truly is a product of the transitional period in ladies skating. Of the many performances I have downloaded to DVD, I go back to 1981 worlds often.

    There were so many new skaters on the scene that year in Hartford, a new era was truly emerging. Skaters like Zayak, Katarina Witt, Denise Biellmann, Debi Cotrill, and Carola Paul had greater athleticism, speed, body awareness, musicality and intensity. What's more, this group was matching the men jump for jump.

    One of my fondest memories is seeing Elaine make her comeback live at the U.S. Nationals in Detroit. Even before she began her short program, the audience gave her a reception unlike any other in the entire championship.

    There was a sense we'd be in for something special.

    Afterwards, everyone jumped out of their seats not only with excitement at a great skate, but that Elaine came back on her terms.

    I'll never forget that day.

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