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  1. #61
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    Regarding figures, Elaine's injured foot was the left so if the figures were drawn on the left foot she was always going to struggle. On the right she could lay down some decent tracings.

    Skateboy watch her Worlds debut in 1980. The jump content for the time is just insane and frankly there's plenty of girls competing today who can't match it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7wV32eQCBs

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    The interviewer (might have been Button?) said most of the US girls said Peggy Fleming. Elaine said oh no, she wanted to be like Sonja Henie, she won more than one Olympic gold medal and was a movie star. After that, Peggy never had a nice word to say about Elaine.
    I can understand preferring Flemings' style and admiring her gold medal, but were no young skaters in the interim inspired by Janet Lynn?
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I think Peggy Fleming felt threatened by Elaine. The American Olympic champion after Peggy was Dorothy Hamill who, like Peggy, had the same content (no triples). Suddenly Elaine comes along with all these triples--the exact opposite of Peggy, spunky and athletic.
    Peggy won three World titles and a gold in 68. You seriously think she felt "threatened" by some up and coming skater almost 20 years later? Um, Ok. Peggy must also felt threatened by Linda Fratianne and her triples then.

    Peggy had a very hard time saying anything positive about Elaine. After Elaine's Olympic LP (the skate of the night IMO), Peggy said "not great, but strong." Yeah right, Peggy.
    Peggy had pleasant thing to say about Elaine's skating. She would say something like "Elaine had worked very hard on her artistic impressions. And she has improved ..... just a little bit."

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    I'm sure Roz did 3t-2t as the SP jump combo, which was the same combo Elaine did.
    Yeah I am pretty sure both did the same jumps in the SP. And Sumners actually did a clean short with the 3 toe combo which is probably the only time she has ever done this, too bad she didnt do it in Sarejevo as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    Skateboy watch her Worlds debut in 1980. The jump content for the time is just insane and frankly there's plenty of girls competing today who can't match it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7wV32eQCBs
    Wow, in 1980! Thanks!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Yeah I am pretty sure both did the same jumps in the SP. And Sumners actually did a clean short with the 3 toe combo which is probably the only time she has ever done this, too bad she didnt do it in Sarejevo as well.
    Witt won the SP in Helsinki '83. Did Roz make a mistake in the SP or was Witt '83 simply better?

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Witt won the SP in Helsinki '83. Did Roz make a mistake in the SP or was Witt '83 simply better?
    Sumners I think stepped out in the middle of her triple combo and finished only 4th in the short behind Witt, Leistner, and Vodorezeva.

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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    Peggy won three World titles and a gold in 68. You seriously think she felt "threatened" by some up and coming skater almost 20 years later? Um, Ok. Peggy must also felt threatened by Linda Fratianne and her triples then.
    Dorothy Hamill did the same content as Peggy, Linda only did two triples in her program (I think) and she didn't win the Olympics. So she didn't "dethrone" Peggy as the beautiful Olympic champion. Suddenly Elaine shows up doing 6 and 7 triples in a program--something no lady ever came close to before, and everyone was talking about Elaine as the next big American star and possible Olympic champion. Yeah, I think it really bothered Peggy.

    Dick Button always had great things to say about Elaine's accomplishments, but I think, as an innovator of technical content in his day, he appreciated it. You could tell that Peggy would rather remove her own appendix with a knife and fork than say anything good about Elaine's skating. What other reason could there be except jealousy??

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    Why wouldnt Peggy feel more threatened by Sumners though. By 84 Zayak was a real long shot for the Olympic Gold, and Sumners was more similar to the pretty princess mold of Fleming and was more likely to eclipse her in popularity as a more modern and current version of herself if she won which going into the 84 Olympics was a real possability unlike for Elaine by that point.

    I dont think Peggy was ever jealous of Elaine. She simply did not like her skating. Should we say Peggy was jealous of Kira Ivanova and Claudia Leistner since she thrashed their skating endlessly as well. Or shouldnt she have been most jealous of someone like Michelle Kwan who all but makes people forget about the Peggy Flemings of the past, but who Peggy adored. While I dont like how the USFSA and some of TPTB treated Elaine in her later amateur years either not everyone has to or is going to like her skating. Peggy should have atleast complimented her good points more and she was downright nasty at times which wasnt needed, but she also did not have to like Elaines skating. I am sure there are others who genuinely dont find her their cup of tea either.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 08-07-2010 at 09:25 PM.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Why wouldnt Peggy feel more threatened by Sumners though. By 84 Zayak was a real long shot for the Olympic Gold, and Sumners was more similar to the pretty princess mold of Fleming and was more likely to eclipse her in popularity as a more modern and current version of herself if she won which going into the 84 Olympics was a real possability unlike for Elaine by that point.
    Maybe because Peggy could always be credited with creating the pretty princess image that all ladies Olympic champions aspire to? Janet, Dorothy, Linda and Roz carried on the tradition.

    Peggy trashed Elaine from the beginning, when everyone else was suddenly wowed by such a young phenom who could change the face of ladies' skating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Maybe because Peggy could always be credited with creating the pretty princess image that all ladies Olympic champions aspire to? Janet, Dorothy, Linda and Roz carried on the tradition.

    Peggy trashed Elaine from the beginning, when everyone else was suddenly wowed by such a young phenom who could change the face of ladies' skating.
    Peggy Fleming loved Midori Ito from the start. And Katarina Witt isnt exactly a pretty princess, more like a diva in a red dress with a ferocious killer instinct, but one who actually skates and hits positions like she never took a ballet class in her life just as much or more than someone like Elaine, and Peggy loved her as well. Or do they not count since they arent American.

    Honestly I think Peggy just genuinely did not like Elaines skating and felt no bones about expressing it. She doesnt strike me as the attention whoreing type who is easily jealous of future skaters success. Just one with a strong opinion and views, and little courtesy and respect for others feelings at times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Honestly I think Peggy just genuinely did not like Elaines skating and felt no bones about expressing it. She doesnt strike me as the attention whoreing type who is easily jealous of future skaters success. Just one with a strong opinion and views, and little courtesy and respect for others feelings at times.
    You may be right, although I notice as the years went by, Peggy's commentating changed. Sometime around the 1988 Olympics. She went from being outright nasty to basically praising every skater, even when they skated like crap. I remember thinking at one point, "What happened to Peggy? She used to be such a b**tch. Now she's like everyone's guardian angel!"

    (Still, I do wonder about the "American" thing. Peggy didn't have much good to say about Debi Thomas, but drooled over Jill Trenary and Caryn Kadavy. Same with Nancy Kerrigan.)

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Honestly I think Peggy just genuinely did not like Elaines skating and felt no bones about expressing it. She doesn't strike me as the attention whoreing type who is easily jealous of future skaters success. Just one with a strong opinion and views, and little courtesy and respect for others feelings at times.
    Agreed. I think that Elaine was the first major US title-winner since Peggy to not effect a princess, doll-like style on the ice.

    Sure, someone like Dorothy was strong and fast but something about her was still uber-feminine on and off the ice. Linda F. was doing triples but appeared petite, slim and doll-like, and was probablu coached on general 'lady-like' demeanor by FC. So, it probably really stood out that Elaine was a great athlete who didn't try to conform herself to that princess image, and being the first one, Peggy really noticed that.

    You wouldn't see another generally more athletic v. artistic competitor win for the US until Debi Thomas in '86. But, I think the fact you had an African-American lady win being such great news, no one bothered to 'pick' at the tiny things re her artistry [which would improve].

    Finally, Tonya Harding rose to the top a few years later, who was more the athlete with incredible skills, but everyone knows the USFSA felt about her the same way as they did about Elaine...And Tonya didn't help her cause but that's been the subject of several threads already, but pre-whack, she wasn't loved for also eschewing the pretty princess image.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    You may be right, although I notice as the years went by, Peggy's commentating changed. Sometime around the 1988 Olympics. She went from being outright nasty to basically praising every skater, even when they skated like crap. I remember thinking at one point, "What happened to Peggy? She used to be such a b**tch. Now she's like everyone's guardian angel!"
    So true!!! She mellowed

    I remember when she said Debi's 3-3 was "easier" because doing two of the same kind of jumps meant they had the same rhythmn. HA! That was in January 1988.

    I wonder if she holds American skaters to a higher standard, and when one of them doesn't achieve that standard, it's hard for her to hold herself back from ripping them a new one.

    Bitchy Peggy was loads of fun to listen to, but later years Peggy was so much more approachable. I'll never forget her call of Sasha's 2006 Worlds free skate. She sounded desolate.

    Dick Button used to be extremely critical of and condescending to Peggy. I bet that was no fun. He toned it down a bit in the Kwan era.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    (Still, I do wonder about the "American" thing. Peggy didn't have much good to say about Debi Thomas, but drooled over Jill Trenary and Caryn Kadavy. Same with Nancy Kerrigan.)
    Peggy was known to favor skaters that were coached by Nicks and the Fassis while Uncle Dick tended to favor skaters that had coaches with roots that branched out from the Skating Club of Boston.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 08-07-2010 at 11:02 PM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    You could tell that Peggy would rather remove her own appendix with a knife and fork than say anything good about Elaine's skating. What other reason could there be except jealousy??
    Peggy's comments of Elaine 11 years later were a little more complimentary

    Elaine Zayak - 1994 United States Championships Technical Program

    P.S. it would be tough to find another example of a skater who actually had a more difficult combination in competition from 10 years earlier..
    Last edited by Seerek; 08-08-2010 at 12:10 AM.

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    I do remember Elaine dissing Peggy somehow back then - dismissing moves in the field (????) or something as "Peggy Fleming stuff." And it was definitely not a compliment.

    RE: Roz's figures, she did hire Kathy Casey specifically to coach her in figures sometime between 82 and 84.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly On The Wall View Post
    I do remember Elaine dissing Peggy somehow back then - dismissing moves in the field (????) or something as "Peggy Fleming stuff." And it was definitely not a compliment.
    Well, if she said that I can see how it would piss Peggy off.

    I doubt Elaine meant to be rude--her interviews strike me a really sweet, naive kid who doesn't have a mean bone in her body. Like this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Eqk6PoS1M

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    Peggy seemed to let up on Elaine a bit after Elaine failed to win the Olympics- or, if you will, after it was revealed that Elaine only had half a foot in that really amazing interview skateboy posted above when TV footage of the foot was shown on TV, which happened during the Olympics, just before Elaine skated her SP. But it's hard to be sure because Elaine was the only US skater at 1984 Worlds, due to the fact that USFS didn't name any alternates to World that year, and both Tiffany Chin and Roz weren't going. Roz retired after winning Olympics, and I think Tiffany was injured ? (that part I don't remember) after it was too late to name an alternate.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Wo...onships#Ladies

    There was no way Peggy was going on an anti Elaine jihad when she was the only US entrant. Also when all the audience knew about Elaine's foot, it would probably look like a bit beating up on a disabled person, too.

    By 1994, Elaine had been retired from Pro skating for a long,long time. And Peggy wasn't doing very much either. It was a stretch for Peggy to play the Sugar Plum fairy in the infamous 1995 tour with Nicole Bobek playing Clara.

    BTW, when barbtoob pegged Peggy as a Carlo Fassi home team rooter,she was absolutely correct. If it was one of Carlo's students, Peggy was noticeably on their side.

    I doubt Elaine was dissing MITF, since her own performances were full of skating transitions and MITF of all sorts, even back to 1980. It might be the same thing Dorothy Hamill meant when interviewed by Time in 2007:

    http://www.time.com/time/arts/articl...669437,00.html

    Who was your sports role model as you were growing up?

    Certainly Peggy Fleming was, but Janet Lynn was the young woman I just idolized. I thought she had the perfect blend of athleticism, artistry, delicateness and power. And she was a beautiful blonde pixie with this radiant smile. She was just a generation before me. But Peggy Fleming was so beautiful, swan-like and elegant. I was in those days considered more of an athletic skater, so I knew I could never be like Peggy Fleming. I always thought that Janet Lynn was probably something realistic for me to aspire to.
    Note that there was nothing IMO lacking in Janet Lynn's skating, either artistically or athletically. And Dorothy says so,too. So Dorothy's idea of what Peggy Fleming stuff might be was about some other quality (than artistry or athletics) in a skating performance. There isn't any better word for it than "Peggy Fleming stuff" perhaps.
    Last edited by DORISPULASKI; 08-09-2010 at 11:28 AM.

  20. #80

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    Never mind; I didn't read DORISPULASKI's post very carefully.
    Last edited by falling_dance; 08-09-2010 at 10:27 AM.
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