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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    The distinction between a toe loop and a toe walley is SUPPOSED to be similar to the flip and the lutz. With a flip you take off from an inside edge; a lutz from the outside edge.

    A "loop" is back outside edge to back outside egde, hence the term "toe loop," when done as a toe jump. A "walley" is back inside edge to back outside edge, so a "toe walley" takes off from a back inside edge, landing on a back outside edge.
    Thank you, that's exactly what I thought. But the current system certainly doesn't recognise this and I would be interested to know if there was a commonly held distinction between the two jumps and when exactly they 'merged' them? By that guideline, Zayak was never in violation of the Zayak rule I don't think.

  2. #22

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    I think at some point in the 1980s they did make a decision to explicitly consider toe loop and toe walley the same for purposes of that rule. But that may have been later than 1983, which was the first year of the rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    Thank you, that's exactly what I thought. But the current system certainly doesn't recognise this and I would be interested to know if there was a commonly held distinction between the two jumps and when exactly they 'merged' them? By that guideline, Zayak was never in violation of the Zayak rule I don't think.
    Is a walley the same as a waltz?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polymer Bob View Post
    Is a walley the same as a waltz?
    No, a waltz is a half revolution jump from forward to backward.

    A Walley is the same as a loop, only taking off from a back INSIDE edge (rather than outside).

  5. #25
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    The toe-loop and toe-walley became one jump, because the majority of skaters during the 80s that were supposedly doing toe-wally were really taking off from an outside edge.

    A ccw skater normally enters a toe-walley from a left forward outside 3, switch skating leg so that the right leg is now the skating leg and is on an inside edge, and the left leg pick behind to vault into the jump. However, if you look closely at the skating leg after the leg switch, 99.9% ofthe skater remained on an oustide edge. I have to take a look at Elaine's toe-walley in slow motion to make sure, but I don't think she ever did a true toe-walley.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussieSKATES View Post
    Interesting article.

    Here is an postscript written about 13 years later about the issues Elaine had with her weight.

    http://aussieskates.com/zayak/web/ryan_articles.htm
    This is such a sad article. She only took up skating to rehab her foot, which was half cut off by lawn mower, then years later she is being pushed around by her parents because of her weight during a growth spurt because they wanted her to be a 1 and 1/2 footed World Champion Figure Skater . . . even when she could still do the triple jumps and improve her spins, it was not enough
    Last edited by bardtoob; 08-05-2010 at 08:40 AM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    Roz's inside ina bauer into 2A was gorgeous, difficult and unique to her
    Tiffiny Chin also did a gorgeous ina bauer into 2A at the same competition:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kicgd...eature=related

    3-minute mark

  8. #28
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    One thing that does strike me is how pro Sumners that Peggy Fleming is. I think Fleming was devastated when Sumners didnt win the Olympic Gold in 84. Fleming is so cold to Elaine. The way she talked about her in her book was horrible.

    I would need to see the scores of the LP to see if they were fair. I would probably have scored them like this though:

    Zayak- technical 5.8, artistic 5.7
    Sumners- technical 5.7, artistic 5.9

    I would have put Sumners ahead in the LP but it is close.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    Tiffiny Chin also did a gorgeous ina bauer into 2A at the same competition:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kicgd...eature=related

    3-minute mark
    Roz's inside edge Ina Bauer into the 2A was more difficult than the more common outside edge IB-2A that Tiffany did. I've not seen anyone else performed Roz's move since 83.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    One thing that does strike me is how pro Sumners that Peggy Fleming is. I think Fleming was devastated when Sumners didnt win the Olympic Gold in 84. Fleming is so cold to Elaine. The way she talked about her in her book was horrible.

    I would need to see the scores of the LP to see if they were fair. I would probably have scored them like this though:

    Zayak- technical 5.8, artistic 5.7
    Sumners- technical 5.7, artistic 5.9

    I would have put Sumners ahead in the LP but it is close.
    I agree with you. Elaine should've had the technical edge [the 3t - 3t seq., nice layback, and the beautiful 3loop midway thru the LP in early '83 is noteworthy] with Sumners winning out on the artistic mark. Do you recall the tech marks in the competition? I seem to remember that it wasn't close...

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    Roz's inside edge Ina Bauer into the 2A was more difficult than the more common outside edge IB-2A that Tiffany did. I've not seen anyone else performed Roz's move since 83.
    Yu Na Kim, 2007 Worlds SP

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I would need to see the scores of the LP to see if they were fair. I would probably have scored them like this though:

    Zayak- technical 5.8, artistic 5.7
    Sumners- technical 5.7, artistic 5.9


    I would have put Sumners ahead in the LP but it is close.
    Sumners completed 1 triple salchow and 2 triple toes (one was barely there, but she held on), fell on a second triple salchow. Spins were slow and not particularly well-executed.

    Elaine could have easily skated Roz's program. No way could Roz have skated Elaine's. Other than a hand down on a triple salchow, Elaine skated flawlessly, with much more difficulty. I think there should have been way more than one-tenth of a point difference in their technical scores, with the nod going to Elaine.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quintuple View Post
    Oh - Level 4 linking ability! How did you make it go right to that spot in the youtube video?
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  14. #34
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    At the top, in the URL, she added #t=4m17s.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quintuple View Post
    Kim had better flow out of the 2A, but she barely held on to the inside edge of the IB. Roz's was no doubt an inside edge IB from beginning of the move to the end of the move until she went into the jump. I mean it was still an impressive move for Yuna, but I think Roz's was much more artistically successful.

  16. #36

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    Getting back to Elaine, I have to wonder if Roz could have made the comeback at Nationals in '94 that Elaine did. Sure, Roz had done alot of pro skating by then, but Roz came back from being completely out of shape to challenge Harding and Kwan. I was really inspired by that. Off to read the articles at the start of this thread now!

  17. #37

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    That is an interesting point and I don't know what jumps Sumners was doing as a pro so unless she was the rare skater who did harder jumps as a pro than as an amateur I doubt that she could do what Zayak did because she was years ahead of the other women!

  18. #38

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    I seriously doubt that Sumners could have done what Zayak did - the most difficult jump that Sumners had done in years was the double axel and her basic skating skills weren't what they once were either. Plus, even at her peak, Sumners didn't have the technical content that Zayak did.

    I liked Sumners as an amateur skater, but I didn't enjoy many of her pro numbers. I've been watching lots of skating from 94-97 as I've been converting it to DVD and the thing that strikes me about Roz is how jerky and awkward her skating was during those years. And her "flirtatious" numbers were just annoying. That said, I should disclose that I might just be so irritated by her commentary (having just watched 96 World Pros) that it has coloured my perception of her skating.

  19. #39
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    I remember reading in International Figure Skating magazine that around 95-96, Sumners was working on getting her triple toe loop back. She looked really fit and toned back then, IIRC.

  20. #40
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    I remember watching my first World Pro competition in 1988 - 1)Denise Biellmann, 2) Debi Thomas, 3) Roz Sumners, 4) Dorothy Hamill

    Dorothy just came off her pregnancy, skated to Whitney Houston with some doubles nand axels, got some 9.6s-9.8s, and said she expected 1s. Debi Thomas was trying very hard to have more artistic programs. Denise Biellmann was freakin' incredible - it was the first time I saw her skate, and she was so, so, so exciting (speaking of the Zayak-Sumners era).

    I remember, having taped it, never ever being able to sit through Roz Sumner's program. It was a French showgirl number, and I do think she had a 2ax, but I remember always being so incredible bored. I wonder if I'd feel the same now.

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