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  1. #41

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    This is why a lot of companies who care about such things no longer simply accept MBAs from regionally accredited programs. They now also require AACSB.
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  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post

    I do think the for-profit schools have a point about requiring all colleges, not just no for-profits, to release their job placement rate. College is being pushed very hard as job training and that's what a lot of people expect. I think it's only fair to let them know the odds of having their investment pay off IF that's why they are enrolling in school.
    They do, and I've said that all along as well. However, the one main difference I see between regular colleges and for-profits is that students seem to be attracted to the for-profits specifically for career reasons, and often only for career reasons. They are there for the promise of a job. While jobs certainly apply to regular colleges, they don't seem to be the *only* reason why a student selects such a college. It's a different demographic, in many cases.

    And proprietary colleges tend to be narrow in focus, only offering certain, highly-career-oriented majors. That's not the case at most regular universities. If this requirement were to apply to all unis, I'm thinking it might actually need to be broken out by major or program. Or only focused on programs that are specifically career-oriented.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    If this requirement were to apply to all unis, I'm thinking it might actually need to be broken out by major or program.
    I wouldn't think it would be particularly useful otherwise. My alma mater has always done this. I always knew how many English BAs, for example, had jobs within a year of graduation, what percentage had jobs that were directly relevant to degree, and what percentage were working in other fields. The school follows up on this at five and ten years, too.

    They don't advertise this to the undergrads; it has to be requested. But it's there if they know to ask.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I wouldn't think it would be particularly useful otherwise. My alma mater has always done this. I always knew how many English BAs, for example, had jobs within a year of graduation, what percentage had jobs that were directly relevant to degree, and what percentage were working in other fields. The school follows up on this at five and ten years, too.

    They don't advertise this to the undergrads; it has to be requested. But it's there if they know to ask.
    The proposal here is to disallow federal financial aid to programs that don't have a certain percentage of their grads able to pay back those loans. So my original question, when I first heard about the proposed rule, was that if they're doing this for the for-profits, why are they making an exception for the traditional colleges? I understand that the situation re: the for-profits is worse, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist at certain not-for-profits. So why treat them separately?

    My thought is that it's because those who go to a for-profit go there specifically for career reasons, and that there is a promise, implied or stated, that going there will lead to a job; while at a traditional college, unless you're part of specific majors, there's no real implication of that promise. But I'm not sure that the line is that hard-and-fast.
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  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    This is why a lot of companies who care about such things no longer simply accept MBAs from regionally accredited programs. They now also require AACSB.
    What is AACSB? And what is the best course of action to determine if a chosen field requires a degree from X type college? I would assume a current practioner?
    What would Jenny do?

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    What is AACSB? And what is the best course of action to determine if a chosen field requires a degree from X type college? I would assume a current practioner?

    AACSB = Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business. It's an accrediting body that recognizes business/commerce/admin degrees, and is the oldest and best recognized one, because its accreditation requirements are fairly rigorous.

    The current practitioner would be a good place to find out....also if there is a professional licensing body, they may only accept qualifications from schools with certain types of accreditation.
    We live in an ageist society where everything is based on youth, but I hated being 18. I don't like teenagers any more now than I did then. I'm 49 now and there is no way that I'd go back to my teens and 20s - even if I knew what I know now, I don't want to go through all that again. I found it a very difficult time. - Buzz Osborne of the Melvins

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    What is AACSB? And what is the best course of action to determine if a chosen field requires a degree from X type college? I would assume a current practioner?
    That'd work. You can also ask places like the Yahoo Answers Higher Ed section.

    But one place to start, just to get an idea, is to type into a search engine "name of field" plus "accreditation". For example, "medical assistant accreditation", and you'll normally at least get yourself started.
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  8. #48

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    Intriguingly, under the government's analysis of loan repayment rates, U of Phoenix nearly met the standard - the standard is 45% repayment, and U of P was at 44%:

    http://www.azcentral.com/community/p...itschools.html

    That's well higher than the repayment rate for Harvard Med, according to the article.

    ETA: for those interested, I dug out the data upon which this article was, I believe, based. It's a Department of Education report on loan repayment rates, by university. It should open as an excel file:
    http://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/r...tive-rates.xls
    Last edited by GarrAarghHrumph; 08-20-2010 at 07:12 PM.
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  9. #49
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    NPR published some more stats comparing loan repayment rates of top private and public schools (taken from the stats in Garr's post above).
    The eight Ivies have a mean average repayment rate of 74.6%, according to new data from the Department of Education. That compares to 70.6% at the eight public Ivies— the publicly funded universities that are considered to provide an education on par with the Ivy League.
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...307997&ps=cprs

  10. #50

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    I'm not sure what the point behind the NPR article actually *is*. What are they trying to say? What is it, in their opinion, that causes the Ivys to have better repayment rates? And what about those Ivys that do not?

    They say that the top publics have lower repayment rates than the Ivys - but the reality is that other than at Harvard, it's not by all that much, and when you look behind the data, you see that it's not about Ivy v. non-Ivy. That, at least perhaps within the top 100 unis in the US, it's less about prestige of degree and is more about the amount of debt a student has upon graduation.

    For example, the average Harvard student leaves school with only $7,347 in debt, and their repayment rate is 84%. Both Brown and one of the "public Ivys" on the list, U Vermont, have debt loads of about $16,500 on graduation, and repayment rates of 63%.

    As a median between those, I picked UMass Amherst - a solid public school, debt load of $13,000, repayment rate of 72%. Then you look at Dartmouth, an Ivy, where students graduate with $20,000 in debt, and have a repayment rate of 70%. Students are paying more for their Dartmouth education, but at least in terms of being able to repay their debt, is it worth it? Perhaps not always.

    My gut is telling me that repayment rate is, at least in part, based on debt load upon graduation, and not necessarily the prestige of your school; unlike what seems to be implied by the NPR article. That while yes, prestige of school may help you get a job and thus pay down your debt, that the difference between the prestige of, say, a Dartmouth and a UVM might not be worth the extra debt in all cases. And that just going to "an Ivy" might not be good enough - that there's a clear difference from one Ivy to the next, and at least in terms of ability to pay off your student loan debt, that you may be better served by going to UMass Amherst than by going to Brown.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    My gut is telling me that repayment rate is, at least in part, based on debt load upon graduation
    I would tend to agree.

    But that does raise another issue over perceived cost of schools--some Ivies and top public universities give out very generous financial aid while others do not. So the cost of the education likely is less a factor than amount of aid available.

  12. #52

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    The release of the "gainful employment" rules has been postponed for now, to allow for clarification of comments and etc. But the Dept. of Ed has confirmed that there will be new rules, and that they will still go into effect in 2012:
    http://chronicle.com/article/Educati...-Delay/124617/
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  13. #53
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    Reposting this:
    On a different note: For-Profit Schools: Large Schools and Schools that Specialize in Healthcare Are More Likely to Rely Heavily on Federal Student Aid
    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d114.pdf

    ETA: for what its worth, it's not just for-profit colleges who should be scrutinized. I took a few classes in a not-for-profit college and it was bad. One of the prof clearly plagiarized with his teaching material and no one did a thing about it. There isn't a venue to complain and nowhere on the website shows you if they even have an auditor. It's pretty clear that they're interested in the tuition and the financial aid and the students get their diploma and everyone's happy. Grrrr....
    Last edited by jlai; 10-08-2010 at 12:02 AM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    The article says that they found some level of high pressure or questionable sales tactics at every school they visited, but these five were doing things that were blatantly illegal.
    I'm resurrecting this thread from the ashes because there have been some developments.

    Just to catch up--the post above references an article about a Government Accounting Office report. The GAO has very quietly issued corrections to the report:

    http://www.insidehighered.com/views/..._of_for_profit

    Education and politics are such a nasty mix.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

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