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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    One thing that I do think U of P does well is student writing, in terms of really helping students learn to write better than when they enter, and in incorporating the mechanics and content of writing throughout their curriculum. I've found student writing out of U of P to be, on average, much better than the student writing I've seen out of lower level brick and mortar colleges.
    Well, then, I would hate to see that writing from the lower level brick and mortar colleges. Because I have had the exact opposite experience with former U of P students.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    One thing that I do think U of P does well is student writing, in terms of really helping students learn to write better than when they enter, and in incorporating the mechanics and content of writing throughout their curriculum. I've found student writing out of U of P to be, on average, much better than the student writing I've seen out of lower level brick and mortar colleges.
    Oooh, is this writing they show you that they've done at UoP, or is this stuff they write afterward?

    Because I do know something about UoP and writing, and if you are talking about things they've written for class there, I wouldn't count it

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    I also think that part of what goes into U of P's rep, in addition to what Prancer noted, is that they are, at least academically, open admissions. So long as you're a working adult, you will get in. That means that some students come in ill-prepared for college work. In general, I think that any school that's open admissions tends to get a not-so-great rep, just by being open admissions.
    Yes, I think community colleges and state universities (to some degree) get a bad rap for the same reason. And any school that has open admissions AND any kind of academic standard is going to have a low student success rate, which is going to affect the school's reputation and ranking.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  3. #23
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    I knew someone that went to u o p and saw their class... it was a message board where they just wrote a paragraph for their assignments, really basic type questions. I know not all classes are prob like that but still I thought it was ridiculous.

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    My university that I attended for undergrad was atop a mountain, which was a @&HS!@ to get to everyday. My university expanded after I graduated. They now have a campus in a suburban mall and I would've LOVED to attend. The food's better, it's easier to get to, easier to find parking, and the food's better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    My university that I attended for undergrad was atop a mountain, which was a @&HS!@ to get to everyday. My university expanded after I graduated. They now have a campus in a suburban mall and I would've LOVED to attend. The food's better, it's easier to get to, easier to find parking, and the food's better.
    Hmm, pretty sure I know the university you are talking about. In BC, right? My husband and I almost interviewed for faculty jobs there a few years ago, but we weren't crazy about the whole multiple campus / mall aspect, so we declined.
    Creating drama!

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Well, then, I would hate to see that writing from the lower level brick and mortar colleges. Because I have had the exact opposite experience with former U of P students.
    You would hate to see the student writing at lower level brick and mortar colleges. It's torture.
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by DickButtonFan View Post
    I knew someone that went to u o p and saw their class... it was a message board where they just wrote a paragraph for their assignments, really basic type questions. I know not all classes are prob like that but still I thought it was ridiculous.
    Most U of P classes require students to:

    1) post a paragraph in response to two discussion questions per week, 200 words or more

    2) post at least two paragraphs per day, for 4/5 out of 7 days, in response to other student or the teacher's posts - 100 words or more each response

    3) write at least one 1500-2500 individual short paper per week

    4) compose, with their team, a 2500+ word group paper each week

    5) final exam, 1-3 hours

    6) final group project, which can be 15,000 words or more.

    The workload isn't small. I think that the paragraph you saw the student write was likely a short, 100 word response to what another student had posted.

    In the lower level classes, the questions are pretty basic, I'm thinking. In the upper division classes, they tend to be more meaty. But no, it's not Harvard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    And some of these schools LIE, LIE, LIE to students.
    Busted.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Kaplan is notoriously mercenary. I'm guessing that this campus also had financial performance problems. Because Kaplan would have to shut down a whole lot more campuses than this one if lying were the only issue.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Kaplan is notoriously mercenary. I'm guessing that this campus also had financial performance problems. Because Kaplan would have to shut down a whole lot more campuses than this one if lying were the only issue.
    I figure that one and the one other one they shut down were just the ones the federal investigators hit. They went into only 15 schools altogether, and they found problems at five schools--the other three weren't Kaplan.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  11. #31

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    The article says that they found some level of high pressure or questionable sales tactics at every school they visited, but these five were doing things that were blatantly illegal.

    The Governmental Accountability Office reported all 15 schools investigated had instances of questionable sales practices, which some say is an indication of widespread problems within the for-profit sector.
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  12. #32
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    Oh, if the local proprietary was shut down, I would laugh and laugh and laugh. Well, if one of their programs were shut down. I don't care about the others. I'm going to smile for a while just imaging that they were.
    Those who never succeed themselves are always the first to tell you how.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    Oh, if the local proprietary was shut down, I would laugh and laugh and laugh. Well, if one of their programs were shut down. I don't care about the others. I'm going to smile for a while just imaging that they were.
    I assume that their rad students can take state boards? Do you know what their success rate is?

    There's a proposal in Ohio to tighten strictures on for-profits in several ways and in reading about that, I learned that there are more than a dozen for-profit schools in my metro area . I knew about some of them, but not that many. One of my friends teaches at one that has a nursing program, and their success rate is on state boards was something like 13% last year. I think schools should be required to tell student applicants things like that up front, before the students sign on. But of course, that's not one of the things that is proposed.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    But of course, that's not one of the things that is proposed.
    What is being proposed?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I assume that their rad students can take state boards? Do you know what their success rate is?

    There's a proposal in Ohio to tighten strictures on for-profits in several ways and in reading about that, I learned that there are more than a dozen for-profit schools in my metro area . I knew about some of them, but not that many. One of my friends teaches at one that has a nursing program, and their success rate is on state boards was something like 13% last year. I think schools should be required to tell student applicants things like that up front, before the students sign on. But of course, that's not one of the things that is proposed.
    Their national board pass rate is around 75%. I think. The first year was 50%. It has to be at least 75 to retain program accreditation. What's going to be an issue for them is an upcoming requirement for students to have a minimum of an associates degree prior to sitting for the Board. My understanding was that all their students were getting that through a local community college (which is actually in a different state as the for-profit is actually in your state), but apparently not all students are. We have one of their grads trying to enter our BS program and none of her rad tech credit will transfer since she didn't get the credit through the CTC as well has the non-profit. My program's students have done that since 1994.

    Apart from the pass rate, their biggest lies have to do with job availability. Local employers won't hire their grads anymore because their clinical skills are horrible. Jobs are scarce as it is and our students will get them first. Their tuition is much higher. Students can attend all four years of our program, pass the boards, graduate with a BS degree and have advanced coursework toward advanced boards for less money than they get at the for profit's two years, no degree and a 50-50 chance of passing the board.

    Our website gives a link to our program accreditation body so an applicant can see for themselves what our accreditation is. We also tell them our pass rate. We're quite proud of the fact it's been 100% for the past 8 years and the average score exceeds the national mean by 8-10 points. But, hardly any applicants have a clue about accreditation, board scores, or quality of a program. My students are trained to ask if they apply to any advanced program. Some have avoided costly mistakes because we make them aware of the importance. High school and even college advisor's are clueless about letting students know the importance of asking about the simplest of questions before spending thousands and thousands of dollars.
    Last edited by rfisher; 08-07-2010 at 10:30 PM.
    Those who never succeed themselves are always the first to tell you how.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    Their national board pass rate is around 75%. I think. The first year was 50%. It has to be at least 75 to retain program accreditation.
    Yes, my friend's school has accreditation pending. Everyone but her seems to think they will get it. She's been through three accreditation processes at other schools and she is sending out resumes on the sly.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    My students are trained to ask if they apply to any advanced program. Some have avoided costly mistakes because we make them aware of the importance. High school and even college advisor's are clueless about letting students know the importance of asking about the simplest of questions before spending thousands and thousands of dollars.
    That's great that you do that for them. I'm an adviser for students in an at-risk program (which is going to be the death of me) and I try to talk to them about accreditation and transfer problems, but I mostly get cows-in-the-field stares. It really is difficult to understand such things if you haven't been out in the working world, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    What is being proposed?
    Several things have been discussed, but the big issue is requiring schools to openly state accreditation status:

    http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...s--821839.html

    That Miami-Jacobs thing is a mess. There's a lot more to it than just that one case.

    There are a lot of for-profit schools in Ohio, many of them with a decent track record, and graduating from one won't necessarily or even probably kill your job prospects, but it's a real case of caveat emptor and the emptors need to be better informed: http://columbus.bizjournals.com/colu...05/story3.html
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Several things have been discussed, but the big issue is requiring schools to openly state accreditation status
    I wonder how much good that would do though.

    If a school has some sort of accreditation, it's very hard for a student to know the real value of that accreditation, and it wouldn't really tell a student if that is the accreditation needed for their field.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    I wonder how much good that would do though.

    If a school has some sort of accreditation, it's very hard for a student to know the real value of that accreditation, and it wouldn't really tell a student if that is the accreditation needed for their field.
    Agreed. And maybe it's just that I can't explain it well, but when I talk about this with students, they don't seem to think that it's important. One of my nieces just enrolled in Kaplan, and nothing I said made an impression. I think she just dismisses it all as my personal bias against Kaplan, and the students I advise all seem to take it the same way. I'm telling them one thing, the for-profit is telling them something else, and they don't know who to believe. Most of them really aren't interested enough to investigate for themselves.

    I do think the for-profit schools have a point about requiring all colleges, not just no for-profits, to release their job placement rate. College is being pushed very hard as job training and that's what a lot of people expect. I think it's only fair to let them know the odds of having their investment pay off IF that's why they are enrolling in school.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  19. #39
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    One of the big problems with radiology programs in the for profit programs, is that they take students who wouldn't get in in other programs. Then the program really waters down the content and pads grades to keep them in the program (and collect financial aid). This in turn leads to the low pass rate on the Boards and the poor reputation for clinical skills. Our rejects or students who heard how difficult our program was were the the students who showed up in the for profit's programs.

    I was offered a job with a for profit that I turned down. They were accepting two classes a year in a market that couldn't possibly accommodate that amount of graduates. Which meant, most were not passing the board. I knew the philosophical differences wouldn't work.

    As for accreditation, in medical imaging, you cannot sit for the national Board if the program is not accredited by JRCERT or ARDMS (in the case of sonography). Unfortunatly, some students don't find that out until they've spent their money, although the information is very clear on the ARRT web site. However, most of them entering the profession don't have a clue what the ARRT is or what its importance will be. We also put that information on our web page along with their web site.
    Those who never succeed themselves are always the first to tell you how.

  20. #40

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    The hospital where my mom works stopped accepting Kaplan students for precepting and other positions. The students were completely unprepared.

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