Joubert: “The skaters have to improve, but the judging system has to improve, too”

[Jenna]

I didn't know quads and triple axels were performed by Junior Ladies these days. Good to know.

[MR-FAN]

And he has a point about a transition in between a quad, not being really possible,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abXWRIblMjQ

[bek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abXWRIblMjQ

And we will see how often Chan's consistent with it. And frankly it didn't look like much steps at all.

[Gil-Galad]

I didn't know quads and triple axels were performed by Junior Ladies these days. Good to know.

First of all - I wrote about Chan; how many Quads did the guy land in ISU competitions? Yeah. Moving on.

Patrick Chan can win competitions and medals with junior/ladies jump content.

And second - I wrote: junior/ladies jump content. The "/" in this case meaning "or" or "and". If I meant junior ladies, I would have written that. And yes, there are ladies out there who do a Triple Axel. And junior men who have the same jump content as, well, every man these days.

Also, at what point did my post come over as a very serious analysis of anything? It was a joke, for heaven's sake!

[CoolGuy]

And he has a point about a transition in between a quad, not being really possible,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abXWRIblMjQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rcaRu59lJI
(not the most intricate steps, but still...)

[Aussie Willy]

My comment came from reading stuff like you wrote about how stroking crossovers and 3 turns should not be enough to get a 7 or an 8 in transitions marks. It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that doing crossovers and stroking and 3 turns would not be deserving of a 7 or 8. So what would be worth a 7 or 8? Stuff like spread eagles and ina bauers or waltz jumps or whatever. Maybe the rules for transitions should be more clear because nowhere does it say that the blade moves are transition moves. It is very clear that arms and the head are included in transitions.

Because you are actually referring to skating skills. However skating skills are not just crossovers but also involve multi-directional skating. And then also reflecting the quality of what the skater is doing.

Watching lots and lots of crossovers, no matter how well done they are, does nothing to make the program interesting and that should be reflected in the mark.

Since he was so involved in trasnition formulation he is responsible for making criteria so vague. This whole discussion would not exist if there was a list of tranisitons skaters had to do and you get a higher score the more of these transitions you do. Everything in the criteria is vague. His threes for Weir at US Nationals shows that he has a list of what a transition is and can't get a lot of others to agree with him on his definitions. At the Olympics two judges gave Plushenko fives in the short program. 2 out of 9 followed Inamans orders or agreed with him.

Inman is not the only one responsible for the criteria. However I don't have a problem with the criteria and find it quite useful.

Well seeing you obviously have a clear idea about what transitions are, would you care to educate the rest of us? Because it seems you know more about it than a judge of many years experience. Or maybe you could become a judge and teach the rest of us a thing or two about it because heavens know we need a lot more judges involved in the sport (you don't get paid of course).

[Ozzisk8tr]

Miki landed that one quad back in like 2002 at the JGPF. It's the only time it's happened.

(Can't Plushenko do a biellmann? )

Yes he could before he got married...



lets watch the ubers go rabid over this one.

[Ozzisk8tr]

Not to pick on you, but I always read this. Who said anything about "the expense of everything else"? Joubert is a great skater. Whether or not you enjoy his style, there's no denying that when he's on, he has great skating skills, great performance qualities, great presentation and excution of his elements, a solid spinner, does great footwork, and great speed and flow across the ice. He's also someone who contineously improves, his footwork and edging is now top notch, but that wasn't always the case. He's spent a couple of years experimenting and improving his choreography, seeked help from the likes of Browning and DenStas, his spins have gotten much better, and he relates more to the audience. His transitions within a program are nowhere near the level of Chan or Takahashi, but he's hardly a skater who's only about the quad.

Agree with you but, why does Brian keep harping on about the quad. I mean he's like the Plush ubers who keep repeating that he will go down in history as one of the greatest skaters of all time. DUH, we already know that, and if his programs at Olympics were clean, with his quad he would have won. They weren't clean, he had wonky landings therefore he got silver.
Back to Brian... IMHO he is a great jumper, a good (not great) spinner, his footwork and edge quality I would say is only average, and his speed is great. His choreographic style is not too much to my liking but it beats blowing kisses at the judges, gyrating his hips and gesturing that he is number 1 (while skating like number two's). Brian will go down as one of the best there has been, as will Plush.

[Jenna]

First of all - I wrote about Chan; how many Quads did the guy land in ISU competitions? Yeah. Moving on.

And second - I wrote: junior/ladies jump content. The "/" in this case meaning "or" or "and". If I meant junior ladies, I would have written that. And yes, there are ladies out there who do a Triple Axel. And junior men who have the same jump content as, well, every man these days.

Also, at what point did my post come over as a very serious analysis of anything? It was a joke, for heaven's sake!

Chan never attempted a 4T in ISU competition. He has landed several triple axels.

How condescending of you to feel the need to link me to a dictionary.
I am a native english speaker, and, yes, I know the meaning of "and/or."
You wrote "junior/ladies," which, I suppose can be taken in a number of different ways. It could mean juniors (men and ladies) or ladies (senior and junior). You need to clarify your posts before scolding others for misinterpreting them.

[AnnieBgood]

I like Joubert, but I don't really feel like we'll see him grow as a skater if all he does is focus on the quad. Maybe if he did a little less, he might actually loosen up about it and land a few more. :shrug:
-----------------------------------------------

Yes he could before he got married...



lets watch the ubers go rabid over this one.

LOLL!

[ciocio]

Look, Inman didn't say ANYTHING about his own opinion. He quoted what Plushenko himself said. Would he have said anything had A) Plushenko not said anything? and B) the interviewer not published that comment? Probably not. Plushenko is to blame in this situation no matter who you are or are not a fan of, and he dragged Joubert down with him in the process.

Joubert understood perfectly the purpose of that mail: to create a conflict between him and Plushenko and to make fun of Plushenko. But Joubert is not stupid, he knew that certain persons were trying to attack Plushenko no matter how and he didn´t fall into the trap. Next time Mr. Inman should try something smarter!

[kwanfan1818]

Not only is he upset that someone won without a quad but that to him that person is not even worth watcihng. It's like he couldn't learn anything from a quadless skate so its just totally irrelevent to him and not only that it should be irrelevent to skating!

Joubert said he didn't want to watch Lysacek's performance after the fact. He didn't watch anyone live:

I didn’t watch the competition. When I finished my program, I just wanted to go back to the hotel, so I can’t say anything about it.

So it's like he couldn't learn anything from quad-ful or quad-less skating.

My point was that nowhere in the criteria does it say that doing basic things can't be worth a lot in the transition mark.

Except for the part of the criteria that requires variety, difficulty, and intricacy.

[ciocio]

This must be the millionth discussion after the same old pattern:

Someone (from the Quad Bloc) says they like to see a Quad and prefer having winners with a Quad.

The Transition Quad enters the discussion, saying that transitions, choreo yadayada are more important overall (wahhhh - COP-friendly - wahhhh)

The Quad Bloc says they still like the Quad and the Quad makes it more difficult to have complicated transitions etc. (wahhh Quad needs to be worth more wahhh)

The Transition Quad accuses the Quad Bloc of being satisfied with a skater coming out on the ice and just doing a Quad-stroke-Triple etc. And of course everyone who is a member of the Quad Bloc is automatically a Plushybot.

Then the Quad Bloc accuses the Transition Bloc of being even satisfied with a skater just doing doubles, if there is enough yadayadayada. Oh, sometimes it also cites the argument that single's skating is looking like single ice dance these days.

---------------------------
But you know what: The Transition Bloc won!!! Evan-freaking-Lysacek is the freaking Olympic Champ! Patrick Chan can win competitions and medals with junior/ladies jump content. Why do you keep arguing about something that has already been decided in your favour? Since you won the whole thing, how about pitying the Quad Bloc or at least ignoring it?

As a member of the Quad Bloc - we are like relicts from an ancient time! We are like these old grandmas, reminiscing about the good old times. And we just enjoy to mope and to complain about the current quadless skates. Once in a while other relicts throw us a bone - like Joubert in this interview - and we just enjoy it, and of course start moping. Can you people just let us mope without rubbing in our faces that in fact the dispute is already over and that we were / are wrong about everything?

Jesus! Evan won but Takahashi could win as well, Plushenko too, etc. Just because Evan won without a quad doesn´t mean that all the skaters until the end of time will win without quads.
Who can predict how many quads, triples, spins, etc, will have the 2014 Olympic Champion, or the 2018 Olympic Champion or the 2022 Olympic Champion, etc,etc,etc. Did Yagudin decide in 2002 that the next Oly Champ. will win with two quads, or Plushenko in 2006 that the next will win with a 4+3+2 combo? I don´t understand why is Evan so special. FS is changing constanly! But your story was funny, even very silly.

[igniculus]

Congrats to the interview, Titi! Good one!

I think everyone stood up and took notice when he was hammering skaters on PCS during the US Nationals, particularly Weir. Most people seemed pretty happy about that.

I still think he want batshit crazy there. His scores for Weir were not justified. Weir sure had much less transitions than other top skaters, but still not some that would be only woth 3-4s. That was insane.

It also goes in with the whole Lepisto World medal. Surely the sport can have a balance between making it only jumps but not writing of jump difficulty as frankly unimportant. To me the real balanced skater has both jumps and spins, footwork etc. I'm tired of great jumps not being called part of the package they are.

Have to agree there. If someone with Lepisto's jump content wins a world medal, something is just not right in this world.

[ciocio]

Jeremy Abbott landed a quad toe in his free skate at US Nationals, in addition to 12 other exquisite elements, including a triple axel. Not to mention, fantastic skating skills, seamless transitions, and masterful choreography. The quad was amazing, but it was one element among one of the best programs in memorable history, in my opinion. Personally, I have no doubt that if Jeremy had skated his two programs from Nationals at the Olympics, he would have been the champion. His programs are the ones rewarded under COP, and rightfully so. Plushenko and Joubert just don't seem to get it.

Exactly! That´s the point! The debate quad vs. transitions is a false problem, Jeremy proved it! Personally I don´t get it!

[ciocio]

Yes he could before he got married...



lets watch the ubers go rabid over this one.

A+++++

For the first time or for the second time?

[angietang]

Perhaps, one of the greatest, but also, without a doubt, one of the most (if not numero uno) controversial skaters as well.

His hissy fit after the Olympics was pathetic and juvenile. He ruined his reputation around the world. Instead of accepting the OSM with grace (as it is still a fantastic achievement) he "jokingly" stepped onto the top step of the podium and whined to the media about how he was robbed of gold. Then, he was banned from competing in ISU sanctioned competition ever again. These past few months have not exactly been Plushenko's moments in the sun.

"Perhaps,...," pardon me, Ms.. "one of the most (if not numero uno) controversial skaters as well" Are you sure? Right here on FSU, it might be the truth, but elsewhere, I don't know. Anyway, for any personality in any circles, being able to attract world's attention at any time is already a big achievement in another sense. We, the superfans of Evgeni Plushenko's, do not mind at all the controversy here on a daily basis, and neither does Evgeni, I firmly believe. My only regret is that the newly crowned Olympic champion might feel lonely as well as hurt, for most people' attention is still focused on the silver medalist instead of on the deserved gold medalist.

As for Evgeni' s behavior after the Vancouver Games, he said/did nothing wrong about the indisputable fact: the quadless Olympic champion in mens singles skating is a big slap in the face of the corrupted COP system as well as a permanent standing joke in the figure skating history. Like every poster speaking your mind here every day, Evgeni Plushenko is entitled to express his heartfelt views on the figure skating and its scoring system, for he has been into his beloved profession for more than 20 years. He did not disgrace his name but simply tell the truth that his rivals/haters find hard to swallow. To demand a false gentlemanly statement from Plushenko on the figure skating is always hard.

BTW, it is not Plushenko but a Canadian pairs who "whined to the media about how they were robbed of the gold medals" after the competitions in Salt Lake City.

[shine]

My point was that nowhere in the criteria does it say that doing basic things can't be worth a lot in the transition mark. The rules don't indicate that if a skater does brackets and choctaws that that skater should only get 3 or 4 and if they do spread eagles they get a 8 or 9. Maybe that is what Inman is going around saying the standards should be but that's not in the rules.

Wow, you are pretty amazing. All I can say is that I'm glad we have people like coaches, choreographers, skaters and some judges in the sport that know the figure skating more than you do, and don't need to be told that doing cross-overs and 3 turns are not really considered "transitions".

I seriously have no idea what you are trying to get at. Did you miss the point that even Plushenko himself knows and admits that he doesn't have transitions? Why are you trying to defend him against that?? Are you trying to tell us that a skater of Plushenko's level doesn't do transitions because they truly don't know what transitions are, since the criteria don't spell it out clearly enough for them, and therefore they should not be criticized or marked low. Like, seriously?

[senorita]

This must be the millionth discussion after the same old pattern:

Someone (from the Quad Bloc) says they like to see a Quad and prefer having winners with a Quad.

The Transition Quad enters the discussion, saying that transitions, choreo yadayada are more important overall (wahhhh - COP-friendly - wahhhh) ....

yeap

Yes he could before he got married...

that was the best argument of this thread. And really it is true, i never thought marriage would damage the romance AND a bielman!

[ciocio]

Perhaps, one of the greatest, but also, without a doubt, one of the most (if not numero uno) controversial skaters as well.

His hissy fit after the Olympics was pathetic and juvenile. He ruined his reputation around the world. Instead of accepting the OSM with grace (as it is still a fantastic achievement) he "jokingly" stepped onto the top step of the podium and whined to the media about how he was robbed of gold. Then, he was banned from competing in ISU sanctioned competition ever again. These past few months have not exactly been Plushenko's moments in the sun.

What reputation? Plushenko never had the best reputation, everybody knows that he can´t restrain himself when he has something to say. Let´s ask Evan how angry is he about what Plushenko said? Is he crying all the time, did he fell into a depression? I bet he is LHAO reading FSU and so is Plushenko!
I remember that a few years ago some of Joubert´s fans were complainng that Plushenko treats so bad poor Bjou and Bjou was suffering, etc, etc. Joubert seems very angry with Plushenko indeed, that´s why he never performed in Plushenko´s shows and never said that Plushenko was a nice guy!!!! FUUUUU!!!