Joubert: “The skaters have to improve, but the judging system has to improve, too”

[caseyedwards]

Sure -- and in the 90's the triple axel was a must have jump, and male skaters were expected to deliver ALL the triples. Now we have had years with men on the podium at Worlds who don't have all the triples. I'm not sure that having a quad while not having a triple axel is much, if any of an improvement.

I think the best are the ones with a triple axel and a quad. Lambiel was the only top level skater I can think of as someone who stopped doing triple axels. I think doing a quad should be the new triple axel but the point system needs to concrete the quad by making it worth more.

They are.

That's why skaters who:

a) control the position of their arms and head all the time (so they are nicely aligned and not just dangling)
b) are able to move them to the music whilst skating

Should be getting higher PCS (this will reflect both under Transitions and Interpretation - provided it's performed to the music - there is a lot of crossover like that with PCS where certain things come under criteria of two or more components).

And Joubert really lacks this kind of detail.

So what is your point again?

I was pointing out that virtually anyting a skater does inbetween elements can be counted as a transition.

From the ISU Components Criteria:



Variety, difficulty, and intricacy wouldn't exactly include stroking and three-turns. It even says in the rules, minimum use of cross-cuts, which I suppose you missed. Also, three-turns were something everyone can do in the first few months of skating. I'd hardly consider them to be difficult or intricate or showing variety when the Sal, toe loop, and flip already have three-turns into their entrances. I also don't think a bunch of arm flailing while skating around on two feet and doing crossovers into everything is showing variety, difficulty, or intricacy; then again, maybe some find it difficult to have arm and head movements while doing crossovers in the same way that some people can't rub their stomachs and tap their heads at the same time.

I saw the cross cut thing but there are lots of elements and judges can decide to judge based on some or all or whatever they want. You have Inman going around saying what he thinks should get high marks but his opinions are not the rules and no judge has to pay attention to anything he says and just based their opinions on their readings of the rules and criteria.

[michiruwater]

Yes, and most judges are wise enough to recognize that what Joubert and Plushenko do are not, in any way, the sorts of transitions that skaters of their caliber should be doing. And they mark them accordingly. Joe Inman not needed.

[mia joy]

Also, I personally disagree that 4/2 should be worth much more than 3/3.

Getting a 3 jump off another jump is very hard because you don't have the preparation time and speed you would normally get.

Why do you hate Joubert and the quad so much? just curious.

And please, look how many girls can perform a 3/3 - even if it's just 3toe-3toe, it's still that 3 jump off another jump that is so very hard to do in your opinion. And now show me a girl who can perform a solid quad and then yet another jump after that.
Seriously, I think this kind of attitude is exactly was has brought us to a situation that we now have Olympic champion without a quad, without artistry, without anything worthy. Sorry, Evan fans.

Didn't even read the interview yet, but as I can see, the quad bashing is back and strong

[caseyedwards]

Okay. He didn't maximize the 2nd half of his program. He seemed to ignore the rules...on.

Well I think Plushenko maximized the first half by doing a quad triple! LOL

[Ozzisk8tr]

Why do you hate Joubert and the quad so much? just curious.

And please, look how many girls can perform a 3/3 - even if it's just 3toe-3toe, it's still that 3 jump off another jump that is so very hard to do in your opinion. And now show me a girl who can perform a solid quad and then yet another jump after that.
Seriously, I think this kind of attitude is exactly was has brought us to a situation that we now have Olympic champion without a quad, without artistry, without anything worthy. Sorry, Evan fans.

Didn't even read the interview yet, but as I can see, the quad bashing is back and strong

Okay, in your way of thinking, show me a guy who can do a Biellman? And what would you say if Pat Chan comes out this year with a quad and his exquisite skating skills. See, I can roll my eyes too I'm not even an Evan fan yet he deserved the gold over Plush's abortion of a program and Baboo's meltdown. I love a good quad, but not at the expense of everything else.

[Tony Wheeler]

I saw the cross cut thing but there are lots of elements and judges can decide to judge based on some or all or whatever they want. You have Inman going around saying what he thinks should get high marks but his opinions are not the rules and no judge has to pay attention to anything he says and just based their opinions on their readings of the rules and criteria.

Look, Inman didn't say ANYTHING about his own opinion. He quoted what Plushenko himself said. Would he have said anything had A) Plushenko not said anything? and B) the interviewer not published that comment? Probably not. Plushenko is to blame in this situation no matter who you are or are not a fan of, and he dragged Joubert down with him in the process.

Then again Ziggy has it right that the judges should be able to realize whether skaters have transitions without anyone (including a skater HIMSELF) saying they don't.

And another thought. Seems that most everyone that had an issue with Inman's quoting Plushenko never once tried to argue that Plushenko had transitions, at least not from what I've seen. They've all just went on about how there was a North American bloc going on, etc, or how everyone just must hate Evgeny.

and no judge has to pay attention to anything he says and just based their opinions on their readings of the rules and criteria.

Exactly, so what is the point of singling out Inman by anyone?

[flyingsit]

To be honest, what's the obsession with the 4-3 combo? If you can do a quad, but not a reliable 4-3, do your quad as the solo jump in the SP, add the 3A and a 3-3, and max out the points that way. Yes, technically the solo jump needs to be "out of steps" but we know that criteria is ignored by the judges anyway.

[angietang]

If the quad was EVERYTHING, then Kevin Van der Pants and Timothy The Tree Goebel would be World Champs.

Your conclusion is really brilliant. Who once said " the quad was EVERYTHING", Brian or Plushenko? Technically speaking, can the quad be measured in the same way as the transitions, the step sequences, or whatever?

[michiruwater]

Didn't even read the interview yet, but as I can see, the quad bashing is back and strong

No one is bashing the quad. No one. I have not once seen anyone bash the quad.

What people are 'bashing' is the mentality that the quad is the end-all-be-all of men's figure skating and trumps absolutely everything else by its mere presence - that it eradicates everything else a skater can and cannot do. I don't think anyone on this site would argue that it's an easy element - though, personally, I think the actual hardest men's singles element is level 4 footwork, which has been accomplished by significantly fewer men than the quad (Lysacek being one of those very few men). And even then the quad is certainly the second hardest. I simply don't think that Evgeni or Brian's ability to land a quad means they should automatically win anything when the rest of their skating doesn't measure up.

[flyingsit]

Agreed with ^ that level 4 footwork in singles is the most difficult thing of all; I believe only three women (Kostner, Asada, and Suzuki IIRC) have achieved it, and among the men only Buttle, Chan, Takahashi, Lysacek and a few others I can't remember right now.

[orbitz]

Okay, in your way of thinking, show me a guy who can do a Biellman?

A Beillman is probably not a good counter example, because there have been more men in the past that have done successful Biellman than there have been women (0) landing quad.

Evan was the deserving Olympic champion. Joubert and Plushy can complain about it all they want but at the end of the day it's Evan that gets to take a shower while wearing the gold medal .

[michiruwater]

Miki landed that one quad back in like 2002 at the JGPF. It's the only time it's happened.

(Can't Plushenko do a biellmann? )

[angietang]

Agreed with ^ that level 4 footwork in singles is the most difficult thing of all; I believe only three women (Kostner, Asada, and Suzuki IIRC) have achieved it, and among the men only Buttle, Chan, Takahashi, Lysacek and a few others I can't remember right now.

"level 4 footwork in singles is the most difficult thing of all":

In other words, the ladies are capable of competing against the mens like Buttle, Chan, Takahashi and Lysacek at the same event, right? If so, why not get the ladies' discipline and the mens' merged in the near future? LOL

[Aussie Willy]

I saw the cross cut thing but there are lots of elements and judges can decide to judge based on some or all or whatever they want. You have Inman going around saying what he thinks should get high marks but his opinions are not the rules and no judge has to pay attention to anything he says and just based their opinions on their readings of the rules and criteria.

However Inman was one of the judges who was involved in the development of the PCS part of the COP. And is probably one of the most qualified people out there to give guidance and instruction to other judges on transitions. So they are his opinions, but when he talks he is someone worth listening to and he can quite easily back up his arguments with examples and information.

Which is something that all judges have to do every time they judge a competition.

I think everyone stood up and took notice when he was hammering skaters on PCS during the US Nationals, particularly Weir. Most people seemed pretty happy about that.

[Marco]

Haven’t you watched the programs on youtube?

No, I don’t want to. I haven’t watched my Olympic program in 2006, nor in 2010 and I don’t want to watch Evan Lysacek, the Olympic champion, without a quad. I still don’t understand it. He is a very good skater, but I’m a little bit disappointed about somebody winning without a quad.

This doesn't sound like he disapproves of Lysacek as the rightful winner - since he never watched. He was just upset someone won without a quad. It wasn't personal against Lysacek, nor was he saying Plushenko should have won.

[michiruwater]

"level 4 footwork in singles is the most difficult thing of all":

In other words, the ladies are capable of competing against the mens like Buttle, Chan, Takahashi and Lysacek at the same event, right? If so, why not get the ladies' discipline and the mens' merged in the near future? LOL

I love it when people take the easy way out in the argument by using hyperbole. It shows such an ability to think.

[caseyedwards]

This doesn't sound like he disapproves of Lysacek as the rightful winner - since he never watched. He was just upset someone won without a quad. It wasn't personal against Lysacek, nor was he saying Plushenko should have won.

Not only is he upset that someone won without a quad but that to him that person is not even worth watcihng. It's like he couldn't learn anything from a quadless skate so its just totally irrelevent to him and not only that it should be irrelevent to skating!

[Marco]

Honestly I don't know why Plushenko and Joubert were/ are complaining. They get their points for the quads and get way gifted on the TR and CH scores already.

Suppose the quad gets more base value but in exchange, all judges apply the rules and criteria correctly. Their reduction in PCS would likely be way more than whatever increase in value their quad could bring.

And it really isn't about old system vs new either. Lambiel and Buttle were in the same era as Joubert and they transitioned to COP just fine (or brilliantly, rather) - because their skating had more than just jumps to offer.

[Marco]

Not only is he upset that someone won without a quad but that to him that person is not even worth watcihng. It's like he couldn't learn anything from a quadless skate so its just totally irrelevent to him and not only that it should be irrelevent to skating!

I wonder if Plushenko could just let go and accept the fact that he wasn't good enough (and was already way gifted with silver). That way his blind fans can finally go to sleep and stop with those silly arguments.

I mean, at least in the Yuna - Mao fan war, both are great skaters.

[bek]

Not only is he upset that someone won without a quad but that to him that person is not even worth watcihng. It's like he couldn't learn anything from a quadless skate so its just totally irrelevent to him and not only that it should be irrelevent to skating!

I think that the Olympics was a great time of dissappointment for Brian, and I could understand if just in general he doesn't particularly want to see the winning skate anyways.