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  1. #261
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    Corridor, damn corridor.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  2. #262
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    Precisely.

  3. #263
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    Another very enlightening post from Mr.Inman. It's very gratifying that he's taken the time and trouble try to clarify things for us.

    Of course, it's not so easy to take all these criteria into consideration at once , then repeat the process for each skater at a competition. That's the point..it seems the project was undertaken to try to make the job easier for the judges - through education and by providing a 'form" for the process, so that the process ,at least, is similar for all judges...

    I feel grateful for the dedication of those who are working to improve both the sport and judging...Many thanks to Mr.Inman and his colleagues.
    Last edited by Pratfall; 08-01-2010 at 09:06 AM.

  4. #264
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    The quad should definitely be given more points.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Observer View Post
    The quad should definitely be given more points.
    Says you.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  6. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Observer View Post
    The quad should definitely be given more points.
    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Says you.
    Actually, says the ISU - as we all know, the base values for quads have gone up, and GOEs for triples are now in units of 0.7, compared to 1 for quads.

  7. #267
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    I agree, the quad should have a higher value in order to encourage skaters to attempt it.

  8. #268
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    I think the quad should be given a million points. And if that's still not enough for a quad jumper to win, you know, because he doesn't know or care what a transition is, then next year the quad should be worth a zillion points.

    And to put it into perspective, once you have reached 2 zillion points, you can upgrade your silver medal to platinum.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Actually, says the ISU - as we all know, the base values for quads have gone up, and GOEs for triples are now in units of 0.7, compared to 1 for quads.
    Since when does the ISU doing something mean it's a good thing?
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  10. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Since when does the ISU doing something mean it's a good thing?
    Well, most people in this thread have established so far that the ISU and its helpers are in it for the greater good of mankind. They want to further the sport, help the judges and the athletes, make the sport fair and honourable and want to encourage world peace. All their intentions are pure, and if sometimes something goes wrong - that is of course regrettable, but in the end everybody is striving to do their best and just have fun.

    Mind you, I sincerely believe that some people are in it for the artistic value and for the love of the sport, e.g. Mr. Inman or the other volunteers, who work as judges, help during competitions etc. But I am quite sure that at the end of the day the ISU works like a political party: at the basis you have lots of decent people, who volunteer their time, sincerely (and often naively so) believe in what they do and especially love what they do. The higher you get though, the more everything is about money and power.

    COP wasn't introduced because people wanted to see transitions or more well-rounded programs, it was introduced because the ISU had to do something to save the reputation of the sport, especially in North America. Most of the changes in the COP are probably made because of some sort of power struggle between the federations or because the ISU once again wants to make the sport more attractive to more fans, so that they can get more money (the "happy music" requirement for ice dance this season). I doubt that at the very top anybody really cares for the artistic integrity of the sport, or for "fair" rules.

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Says you.
    Not just "you". I wish the damned thing had never been started but since it's here to stay, yeah, an extra revolution, not to mention the strain on the body and the rest of the program - it should be rewarded considerably higher. With consideration for take off, landing, run out ... all of that. To ignore it while triple after triple after triple and in combo get mega points is just silly.

  12. #272

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil-Galad View Post
    Well, most people in this thread have established so far that the ISU and its helpers are in it for the greater good of mankind. They want to further the sport, help the judges and the athletes, make the sport fair and honourable and want to encourage world peace. All their intentions are pure, and if sometimes something goes wrong - that is of course regrettable, but in the end everybody is striving to do their best and just have fun.

    Mind you, I sincerely believe that some people are in it for the artistic value and for the love of the sport, e.g. Mr. Inman or the other volunteers, who work as judges, help during competitions etc. But I am quite sure that at the end of the day the ISU works like a political party: at the basis you have lots of decent people, who volunteer their time, sincerely (and often naively so) believe in what they do and especially love what they do. The higher you get though, the more everything is about money and power.

    COP wasn't introduced because people wanted to see transitions or more well-rounded programs, it was introduced because the ISU had to do something to save the reputation of the sport, especially in North America. Most of the changes in the COP are probably made because of some sort of power struggle between the federations or because the ISU once again wants to make the sport more attractive to more fans, so that they can get more money (the "happy music" requirement for ice dance this season). I doubt that at the very top anybody really cares for the artistic integrity of the sport, or for "fair" rules.
    Ummm as a volunteer in this sport, I reject that most of us who get involved are naive. For most of us, it is not about the top level of skating but the simple grass roots levels that we participate in. That top level is only the top of a triangle. But some of us put in bloody long hours and stick at it for years to make this sport work for all the skaters who practise every week to maybe get out there on the ice for 2-3 minutes at a competition, from tiny tots to adults.

    As for COP, it is a pity that the impetus for its introduction was a scandal, but it is a much fairer system than 6.0 ever was. And everyone who gets involved in these discussions don't realise that your Preliminary or Intermediate skaters also are judged under this system and appreciate it so much more than what came before IJS.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  13. #273

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    A few week ago I ordered a book called Figure skating today : the next wave of stars by Steve Milton because it had mao Asada on the cover.I got in Saturday. It was a book that chronicled the 2006-2007 season and I was shocked by something he wrote. I couldn't believe because it turned out to be so wrong but I know it was the conventional wisdom at the time. It is just so unbelivable considering what has happened the seasons since the book was written but Milton wrote that "in the road to vancouver it is obvious that elite men will need quads perhaps two or three to win gold" in vancouver. It just turned out to be so wrong and so off kilter that I stopped reading out of shock! This guy wrote a book on figure skating and was so off! The Gold medalists in the next three worlds would do zero quads and the Olympic champion would attempt none! Man was this guy wrong? Anyway I still have nice pictures of lots of skaters but WOW!

    I also got christine brennan's book edge of glory but its from the 6.0 era so of course the talk about quads is less absurd than in Milton's book. Holy crap was he wrong!

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    A few week ago I ordered a book called Figure skating today : the next wave of stars by Steve Milton because it had mao Asada on the cover.I got in Saturday. It was a book that chronicled the 2006-2007 season and I was shocked by something he wrote. I couldn't believe because it turned out to be so wrong but I know it was the conventional wisdom at the time. It is just so unbelivable considering what has happened the seasons since the book was written but Milton wrote that "in the road to vancouver it is obvious that elite men will need quads perhaps two or three to win gold" in vancouver. It just turned out to be so wrong and so off kilter that I stopped reading out of shock! This guy wrote a book on figure skating and was so off! The Gold medalists in the next three worlds would do zero quads and the Olympic champion would attempt none! Man was this guy wrong? Anyway I still have nice pictures of lots of skaters but WOW!

    I also got Christine Brennan's book Edge of Glory but its from the 6.0 era so of course the talk about quads is less absurd than in Milton's book. Holy crap was he wrong!
    May I recommend another book by Steve Milton called "Skate Talk?" It's from the mid-late 1990's (with a picture of Michelle on it). There are no pictures inside but has many interviews with skaters, coaches, and other people deeply involved in some aspect of figure skating. Very interesting read, and to date, still one of my favorite skating books. I come back to it a lot.

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil-Galad View Post
    COP wasn't introduced because people wanted to see transitions or more well-rounded programs, it was introduced because the ISU had to do something to save the reputation of the sport, especially in North America. Most of the changes in the COP are probably made because of some sort of power struggle between the federations or because the ISU once again wants to make the sport more attractive to more fans, so that they can get more money (the "happy music" requirement for ice dance this season). I doubt that at the very top anybody really cares for the artistic integrity of the sport, or for "fair" rules.
    CoP was in the works before Salt Lake City, so the connection to the North American audience isn't quite clear, and the combination of a small deduction on one jump and transitions criteria, if anything, would have made it very easy to explain a B&S victory in the FS, a bit ironic if sucking up to the North Americans, no?
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  16. #276

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    Quote Originally Posted by paskatefan View Post
    May I recommend another book by Steve Milton called "Skate Talk?" It's from the mid-late 1990's (with a picture of Michelle on it). There are no pictures inside but has many interviews with skaters, coaches, and other people deeply involved in some aspect of figure skating. Very interesting read, and to date, still one of my favorite skating books. I come back to it a lot.
    Thanks for the recommendation. I will get it. It looks interesting!

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I think the quad should be given a million points. And if that's still not enough for a quad jumper to win, you know, because he doesn't know or care what a transition is, then next year the quad should be worth a zillion points.

    And to put it into perspective, once you have reached 2 zillion points, you can upgrade your silver medal to platinum.
    ha ha, that would be extremely funny ..5 months ago.

  18. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Observer View Post
    The quad should definitely be given more points.
    Absolutely! That's like saying a triple shouldn't be worth more than a double. A quad is very hard and for those who wish to try it...they should be rewarded appropriately.

  19. #279
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    There is no denying a quad is worth many points - but some people do deny that a 4-2 is the same as 3-3 or they say it's even worse, because getting the power to do a triple as a second jump is so difficult. It's like a quad was such a piece of cake

    I don't really get it - people seem to agree that Mao's 3a-2t should get more points than 3t-3t. Isn't it the exact same situation with quads, only with one half of a turn more?

    I just cannot understand how anyone would go for a cool transition instead of a clean quad. Skating isn't dancing, after all, and jumps do count. Jumps count a lot, actually. You wanna see transitions, go watch some dancing.
    Or ice dancing. Transitions should be there, choreography, surely, but it shouldn't be a transition-over-a-quad attitude. This way we go backwards and one doesn't have to be a genius to see it. Perhaps some people could note that landing a quad in a combination and a triple axel in a very short period of time and then maybe yet another quad later in the program does make you wanna nevermind transitions and focus on a superdifficult jumps you're gonna do.

    oh yeah, and note: I'm not saying quad is everything. Just saying it's an important part of men's figure skating, which is being killed by the system we're dealing with.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    oh yeah, and note: I'm not saying quad is everything. Just saying it's an important part of men's figure skating, which is being killed by the system we're dealing with.
    Or maybe the sport is rebuilding the things that were dropped in the triple/triple and especially the quad era and encouraging skaters to add the quad back.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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