Best ever 2 times or more Ladies World Medalist (but no golds and no Olympic medals)?

[judgejudy27]

Midori Ito 1986 Worlds and don't forget how she destroyed Tonya Harding at 1986 Skate America . . .

Tiffany got so much help from compulsory figures that it is ridiculous to even compare her to no political clout all free skating Fumie Suguri.

-----------

I wonder what would have happened if Tiffany Chin had competed in an all free skating format in 1986.

Tiffany Chin (USA) - 1986 World Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Long Program
vs
Midori Ito - 1986 World Championships Long Program

Chin had major injury (and personal) problems which wrecked her career and forced her into retirement before the 88 Olympics. She was already a shadow of her old self by 1986.

When you look at Chin skate in 1984 she was a wonderful free skater. You say she was helped by figures by 86, but she was hurt by them in 1984. Had it not been for figures she would have won atleast silver at the Sarajevo Olympics. In 1984 and 1985 everyone thought she was a future World or/ and Olympic Champion but her injuries and crazy mom ruined her and allowed Thomas, Kadavy, and eventually Trenary to all sweep past her in the U.S.

Suguri is good but nobody ever really believed she had the potential to be a World Champion. And she wasnt good enough to ever beat some top skaters of her own era. Like I said she never beat Kwan in a decade competing together, and I believe her only ever time beating Irina was the 2004 Worlds which was Irina's first event back from a major illness (and even then only by one placing).

[judgejudy27]

On what basis was Bonaly fifth best? I'm not saying she wasn't, but it doesn't seem that cut and dry. Bonaly had some pretty good competitive results: 5-time European champion and 3 consecutive silver medals at Worlds (arguably being robbed of a gold medal at '93 Worlds). Her basics were not so great but she generally showed strong technical jumping content and pushed the envelope by attempting quads and triple-triples. I haven't voted yet, but I think there's a decent argument for saying she was the best of the bunch in this poll.

I said she was ultimately only 5th best of 93-94 because Baiul, Kerrigan, Sato, and Chen all won either a World title or Olympic medal those 2 years. Bonaly did not do either. Thus the others were IMO more successful during this time.

[dawnie]

Suguri is good but nobody ever really believed she had the potential to be a World Champion. And she wasnt good enough to ever beat some top skaters of her own era. Like I said she never beat Kwan in a decade competing together, and I believe her only ever time beating Irina was the 2004 Worlds which was Irina's first event back from a major illness (and even then only by one placing).

I agree. Suguri achieved a lot for IMO, a second-tier skater. I honestly don't see how she's any better than say, Sarah Meier who has no world medals.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I agree. Suguri achieved a lot for IMO, a second-tier skater. I honestly don't see how she's any better than say, Sarah Meier who has no world medals.

Compare their skating skills and choreography in 2002, and that's the difference. I also felt she gave the best performance in the SP portion of the 2006 Olympics...too bad her elements weren't as strong as the top 3.

[bardtoob]

Suguri is good but nobody ever really believed she had the potential to be a World Champion. And she wasnt good enough to ever beat some top skaters of her own era. Like I said she never beat Kwan in a decade competing together, and I believe her only ever time beating Irina was the 2004 Worlds which was Irina's first event back from a major illness (and even then only by one placing).

Fumie peaked during the 2002 Olympic Cycle, and, sure, she never beat Michelle Kwan or Irina Slutskaya, but that is like saying she never beat two Katarina Witts performing at the same competition.

It is as clear as day to me when I watch Fumie's 2002 Worlds performances that she deserved to be top tier and on the podium because she earned it. Furthermore, she has as many World Medals as Cohen and has 3 straight National titles (2001-2003), which she earned by beating Shizuka Arakawa, Miki Ando, and Yoshie Onda at the same competitions.

As for "anyone" expecting her to win Worlds, I do not think anybody expected any skater except an American or European to win Worlds during that era. She was the first Japanese World Medalist since Yuka Sato, then followed it up with another World Medal the next year. As for the 2002 Olympics, she should have been higher than both Sarah Hughes and Sasha Cohen in the SP and placed better than 5th.

[Fallcolor]

Imma go with Tiffany Chin and Fumie Suguri.

Chin for her actual skills and capability that could match the top skaters, and Suguri for the instances where i thought she got unlucky either because she had to compete/get beaten by skaters of the same calibre (Cohen in 02 and 03) or possible unlucky skate order (02 SLC LP). She must have gotten lost in the shuffle in 2002 SLC- imo she should have replaced Hughes or Sebestyen for to top the final flight. Didn't she also skate really early in the second last group as well? more unfortunate for her.

But IMO Suguri’s best performance was 2005 4cc, where if she had duplicated those two performances at 2005 worlds, would easily have won a medal, maybe silver.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

But IMO Suguri’s best performance was 2005 4cc, where if she had duplicated those two performances at 2005 worlds, would easily have won a medal, maybe silver.

Oh I know. I wish she had saved those two programs for the 2006 Olympics. Suguri still has my favorite Carmen program for any ladies skater.

[judgejudy27]

Fumie peaked during the 2002 Olympic Cycle, and, sure, she never beat Michelle Kwan or Irina Slutskaya, but that is like saying she never beat two Katarina Witts performing at the same competition.

True but a skater who couldnt beat Witt atleast once who wasnt hampered by an obvious unique disadvantage (eg- Ito in figures) or who couldnt atleast beat her in a free skate (eg- Manley) I would consider at best a top 2nd tier skater of the Witt era too. That is how I would term Kadavy (though I love her skating), Trenary, Leistner, Ivanova, and maybe Kondrashova during the Witt era in the mid 80s too for example, with Kadavy and Trenary the cream of the 2nd tier.

It is as clear as day to me when I watch Fumie's 2002 Worlds performances that she deserved to be top tier and on the podium because she earned it.

I agree she skated beautifully there and fully earned her medal, as well as her other 2 World medals. Still an event like this shows even at her best she was being lapped by Kwan and Slutskaya. Skaters like Cohen, Arakawa, and even Hughes (if only via her consistency and cheated triple-triples under 6.0) were atleast able to mount a challenge and both one or both on occasion. Even Butyrskaya was able to in fact, and Maria also stayed in front of Fumie in the rankings until the very end of her final season, now aged 29. Neither Maria or Fumie were politically in favor at all really, but Maria had the advantage of being a former World Champion.

Furthermore, she has as many World Medals as Cohen and has 3 straight National titles (2001-2003), which she earned by beating Shizuka Arakawa, Miki Ando, and Yoshie Onda at the same competitions.

True but Cohen has the Olympic silver which is a huge achievement and edge. If you removed 2 events from Shizuka's career she would pale in comparision to Elena Liashenko, but those 2 events- a World and Olympic Gold, set her career to a whole different level, and even a higher level than Fumie's much more consistent career (and even Sasha's for that matter).

As for "anyone" expecting her to win Worlds, I do not think anybody expected any skater except an American or European to win Worlds during that era. She was the first Japanese World Medalist since Yuka Sato, then followed it up with another World Medal the next year. As for the 2002 Olympics, she should have been higher than both Sarah Hughes and Sasha Cohen in the SP and placed better than 5th.

I agree, the American women were all overmarked in SLC IMO. Home court advantage which is typical in the sport. She definitely should have beaten Sasha, I would say perhaps in both programs but for sure in the long and overall. Still it is hard to say she deserved a medal over any of the 3 medalists there.

And it is possible nobody expected a Japanese women to win Worlds during this era but Shizuka still won Worlds and the Olympics. Actually after winning Worlds I think Shizuka was considered a contender for gold at the 2005 Worlds and 2006 Olympics. I dont think Fumie was ever considered a gold contender at Worlds, just a medal contender. Is there any year that people went into Worlds saying they thought Fumie even had a shot of winning?

[judgejudy27]

But IMO Suguri’s best performance was 2005 4cc, where if she had duplicated those two performances at 2005 worlds, would easily have won a medal, maybe silver.

I agree she would have won silver at the 2005 Worlds with her 4cc's performances. And given the strength of the field that year it would have actually elevated her career quite a bit overall. She now would have convincingly beaten Kwan at a big event, and beaten a prime Cohen with Sasha staying on her feet. She also might have gotten more clout going into the 2006 Games had she done this, and the Japanese federation might well now have favored her over Shizuka who was a lowly 9th at the 2005 Worlds.

[pinky166]

KOSTNER! duh

[bardtoob]

Sure, Kostner

Carolina Kostner 2009 Worlds Free Skate


. . . so Hubert like.

[pinky166]

Sure, Kostner

Carolina Kostner 2009 Worlds Free Skate


. . . so Hubert like.

I know but still. Have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omkV2Za9nws No one else on the list can do a 3f-3t-2lo like that!
Yay Caro

[bardtoob]

Ewww . . . Thank goodness nobody else does it like that. The jumps are impressive, but she goes completely flat, arms to her side for 1/4 of the rink prior to the jumps, making it something any figure skating purist would loath. It's yucky, wrong, neither figure skating nor artistic skating. It's a scored training session.

[judgejudy27]

For me Kostner is the worst skater on that list other than possibly Kristofics Binder. Leistner atleast was a consistently pretty strong technical skater who worked hard to improve on her presentation over the years even though she got buried by the depth of the field in the 85-88 quad. Holmes was a very strong skater, superior at figures to Magnussen and Lynn, and superior at free skating to nearly everyone except Seyfert, Magnussen and Lynn. Bonaly for all her flaws was atleast very reliable technically and trying some of the hardest jumps out there during her prime of 93-95.

[Triple Butz]

Suguri, Chin a close second.

[Fozzie Bear]

Compare their skating skills and choreography in 2002, and that's the difference. I also felt she gave the best performance in the SP portion of the 2006 Olympics...too bad her elements weren't as strong as the top 3.

Also, Fumie has proven to be a better clutch competitor. She was hosed in the PCS compared to the top three.

Is there any year that people went into Worlds saying they thought Fumie even had a shot of winning?

Well, 2006.

[judgejudy27]

Well, 2006.

I thought Sasha was considered a lock in 2006 with who was not there, and the consensus was if anyone beat her it would be a teenager with triple-triples (which it was).

Maybe in 2004 though. Suguri did win the GP over Cohen that year. Was Suguri considered a gold contender for the 2004 Worlds along with Kwan and Cohen going in this year.

[museksk8r]

Bonaly for all her flaws was atleast very reliable technically and trying some of the hardest jumps out there during her prime of 93-95.

Many of which were under-rotated.

[judgejudy27]

Many of which were under-rotated.

True but so were most skaters pre-COP (one reason thank god for COP despite all the complaints it gets).

[bek]

I agree. Suguri achieved a lot for IMO, a second-tier skater. I honestly don't see how she's any better than say, Sarah Meier who has no world medals.

I think Suguri at her prime was better. In her prime she landed a lot more triples and was top 3 in the world two years straight. Yes Sarah had deeper fields, but I don't think she would have beaten Suguri's best skates.